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Code Complete with Steve McConnell
2025-09-10 · 15:43
Gergely Orosz
– host
,
Steve McConnell
– Author
Brought to You By: • Statsig — The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. Statsig built a complete set of data tools that allow engineering teams to measure the impact of their work. This toolkit is SO valuable to so many teams, that OpenAI - who was a huge user of Statsig - decided to acquire the company, the news announced last week. Talk about validation! Check out Statsig. • Linear – The system for modern product development. Here’s an interesting story: OpenAI switched to Linear as a way to establish a shared vocabulary between teams. Every project now follows the same lifecycle, uses the same labels, and moves through the same states. Try Linear for yourself. — The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast is back with the Fall 2025 season. Expect new episodes to be published on most Wednesdays, looking ahead. Code Complete is one of the most enduring books on software engineering. Steve McConnell wrote the 900-page handbook just five years into his career, capturing what he wished he’d known when starting out. Decades later, the lessons remain relevant, and Code Complete remains a best-seller. In this episode, we talk about what has aged well, what needed updating in the second edition, and the broader career principles Steve has developed along the way. From his “career pyramid” model to his critique of “lily pad hopping,” and why periods of working in fast-paced, all-in environments can be so rewarding, the emphasis throughout is on taking ownership of your career and making deliberate choices. We also discuss: • Top-down vs. bottom-up design and why most engineers default to one approach • Why rewriting code multiple times makes it better • How taking a year off to write Code Complete crystallized key lessons • The 3 areas software designers need to understand, and why focusing only on technology may be the most limiting • And much more! Steve rarely gives interviews, so I hope you enjoy this conversation, which we recorded in Seattle. — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:31) How and why Steve wrote Code Complete (08:08) What code construction is and how it differs from software development (11:12) Top-down vs. bottom-up design approach (14:46) Why design documents frustrate some engineers (16:50) The case for rewriting everything three times (20:15) Steve’s career before and after Code Complete (27:47) Steve’s career advice (44:38) Three areas software designers need to understand (48:07) Advice when becoming a manager, as a developer (53:02) The importance of managing your energy (57:07) Early Microsoft and why startups are a culture of intense focus (1:04:14) What changed in the second edition of Code Complete (1:10:50) AI’s impact on software development: Steve’s take (1:17:45) Code reviews and GenAI (1:19:58) Why engineers are becoming more full-stack (1:21:40) Could AI be the exception to “no silver bullets?” (1:26:31) Steve’s advice for engineers on building a meaningful career — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • What changed in 50 years of computing • The past and future of modern backend practices • The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout • AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype – with Simon Willison (co-creator of Django) • TDD, AI agents and coding – with Kent Beck — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe |
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The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout
2025-04-09 · 16:25
Gergely Orosz
– host
,
John Ousterhout
– Stanford professor
@ Stanford University
Supported by Our Partners • CodeRabbit — Cut code review time and bugs in half. Use the code PRAGMATIC to get one month free. • Modal — The cloud platform for building AI applications. — How will AI tools change software engineering? Tools like Cursor, Windsurf and Copilot are getting better at autocomplete, generating tests and documentation. But what is changing, when it comes to software design? Stanford professor John Ousterhout thinks not much. In fact, he believes that great software design is becoming even more important as AI tools become more capable in generating code. In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, John joins me to talk about why design still matters and how most teams struggle to get it right. We dive into his book A Philosophy of Software Design, unpack the difference between top-down and bottom-up approaches, and explore why some popular advice, like writing short methods or relying heavily on TDD, does not hold up, according to John. We also explore: • The differences between working in industry vs. academia • Why John believes software design will become more important as AI capabilities expand • The top-down and bottoms-up design approaches – and why you should use both • John’s “design it twice” principle • Why deep modules are essential for good software design • Best practices for special cases and exceptions • The undervalued trait of empathy in design thinking • Why John advocates for doing some design upfront • John’s criticisms of the single-responsibility principle, TDD, and why he’s a fan of well-written comments • And much more! As a fun fact: when we recorded this podcast, John was busy contributing to the Linux kernel: adding support to the Homa Transport Protocol – a protocol invented by one of his PhD students. John wanted to make this protocol available more widely, and is putting in the work to do so. What a legend! (We previously covered how Linux is built and how to contribute to the Linux kernel) — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:00) Why John transitioned back to academia (03:47) Working in academia vs. industry (07:20) Tactical tornadoes vs. 10x engineers (11:59) Long-term impact of AI-assisted coding (14:24) An overview of software design (15:28) Why TDD and Design Patterns are less popular now (17:04) Two general approaches to designing software (18:56) Two ways to deal with complexity (19:56) A case for not going with your first idea (23:24) How Uber used design docs (26:44) Deep modules vs. shallow modules (28:25) Best practices for error handling (33:31) The role of empathy in the design process (36:15) How John uses design reviews (38:10) The value of in-person planning and using old-school whiteboards (39:50) Leading a planning argument session and the places it works best (42:20) The value of doing some design upfront (46:12) Why John wrote A Philosophy of Software of Design (48:40) An overview of John’s class at Stanford (52:20) A tough learning from early in Gergely’s career (55:48) Why John disagrees with Robert Martin on short methods (1:10:40) John’s current coding project in the Linux Kernel (1:14:13) Updates to A Philosophy of Software Design in the second edition (1:19:12) Rapid fire round (1:01:08) John’s criticisms of TDD and what he favors instead (1:05:30) Why John supports the use of comments and how to use them correctly (1:09:20) How John uses ChatGPT to help explain code in the Linux Kernel — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • Engineering Planning with RFCs, Design Documents and ADRs • Paying down tech debt • Software architect archetypes • Building Bluesky: a distributed social network — See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe |
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