Brought to you by: • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images. • Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control. — Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition. He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group. Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss: • What it means to be an IBM Fellow • The evolution of the field of software development • How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML • Pivotal moments in software development history • How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years • Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates! • Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs) • Advice to less experienced software engineers • … and much more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM (03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems (09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to (11:27) The evolution of the field of software development (16:23) An overview of the Booch method (20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method (22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike (25:35) Grady’s work with Bjarne Stroustrup (26:41) ROSE and working with the commercial sector (30:19) How Grady built UML with Ibar Jacobson and James Rumbaugh (36:08) An explanation of UML and why it was a mistake to turn it into a programming language (40:25) The IBM acquisition and why Grady declined Bill Gates’s job offer  (43:38) Why UML is no longer used in industry  (52:04) Grady’s thoughts on formal methods (53:33) How the software architect role changed over time (1:01:46) Disruptive changes and major leaps in software development (1:07:26) Grady’s early work in AI (1:12:47) Grady’s work with Johnson Space Center (1:16:41) Grady’s thoughts on LLMs  (1:19:47) Why Grady thinks we are a long way off from sentient AI  (1:25:18) Grady’s advice to less experienced software engineers (1:27:20) What’s next for Grady (1:29:39) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • The Past and Future of Modern Backend Practices https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices  • What Changed in 50 Years of Computing https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing  • AI Tooling for Software Engineers: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024 — Where to find Grady Booch: • X: https://x.com/grady_booch • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gradybooch • Website: https://computingthehumanexperience.com Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/ • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/ • X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz — References and Transcripts: See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Brought to you by: • Launch Darkly — a platform for high-velocity engineering teams to release, monitor, and optimize great software.  • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images. • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. — On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by fellow Uber alum, Sabin Roman, now the first Engineering Manager at Linear. Linear, known for its powerful project and issue-tracking system, streamlines workflows throughout the product development process. In our conversation today, Sabin and I compare building projects at Linear versus our experiences at Uber. He shares insights into Linear’s unique approaches, including: • How Linear handles internal communications • The “goalie” program to address customer concerns and Linear’s zero bug policy • How Linear keeps teams connected despite working entirely remotely • An in-depth, step-by-step walkthrough of a project at Linear • Linear’s focus on quality and creativity over fash shipping  • Titles at Linear, Sabin’s learnings from Uber, and much more! Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:41) Sabin’s background (02:45) Why Linear rarely uses e-mail internally (07:32) An overview of Linear's company profile (08:03) Linear’s tech stack (08:20) How Linear operated without product people (09:40) How Linear stays close to customers (11:27) The shortcomings of Support Engineers at Uber and why Linear’s “goalies” work better (16:35) Focusing on bugs vs. new features (18:55) Linear’s hiring process (21:57) An overview of a typical call with a hiring manager at Linear (24:13) The pros and cons of Linear’s remote work culture (29:30) The challenge of managing teams remotely (31:44) A step-by-step walkthrough of how Sabin built a project at Linear  (45:47) Why Linear’s unique working process works  (49:57) The Helix project at Uber and differences in operations working at a large company (57:47) How senior engineers operate at Linear vs. at a large company (1:01:30) Why Linear has no levels for engineers  (1:07:13) Less experienced engineers at Linear (1:08:56) Sabin’s big learnings from Uber (1:09:47) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • The story of Linear, as told by its CTO • An update on Linear, after their $35M fundraise • Software engineers leading projects • Netflix’s historic introduction of levels for software engineers — Where to find Sabin Roman: • X: https://x.com/sabin_roman • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabinroman/ Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/ • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/ • X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz — References and Transcripts: See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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