Supported by Our Partners • Swarmia — The engineering intelligence platform for modern software organizations. • Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform.  • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. — On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Chip Huyen, a computer scientist, author of the freshly published O’Reilly book AI Engineering, and an expert in applied machine learning. Chip has worked as a researcher at Netflix, was a core developer at NVIDIA (building NeMo, NVIDIA’s GenAI framework), and co-founded Claypot AI. She also taught Machine Learning at Stanford University. In this conversation, we dive into the evolving field of AI Engineering and explore key insights from Chip’s book, including: • How AI Engineering differs from Machine Learning Engineering  • Why fine-tuning is usually not a tactic you’ll want (or need) to use • The spectrum of solutions to customer support problems – some not even involving AI! • The challenges of LLM evals (evaluations) • Why project-based learning is valuable—but even better when paired with structured learning • Exciting potential use cases for AI in education and entertainment • And more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro  (01:31) A quick overview of AI Engineering (05:00) How Chip ensured her book stays current amidst the rapid advancements in AI (09:50) A definition of AI Engineering and how it differs from Machine Learning Engineering  (16:30) Simple first steps in building AI applications (22:53) An explanation of BM25 (retrieval system)  (23:43) The problems associated with fine-tuning  (27:55) Simple customer support solutions for rolling out AI thoughtfully  (33:44) Chip’s thoughts on staying focused on the problem  (35:19) The challenge in evaluating AI systems (38:18) Use cases in evaluating AI  (41:24) The importance of prioritizing users’ needs and experience  (46:24) Common mistakes made with Gen AI (52:12) A case for systematic problem solving  (53:13) Project-based learning vs. structured learning (58:32) Why AI is not the end of engineering (1:03:11) How AI is helping education and the future use cases we might see (1:07:13) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • Applied AI Software Engineering: RAG https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/rag  • How do AI software engineering agents work? https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-coding-agents  • AI Tooling for Software Engineers in 2024: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024  • IDEs with GenAI features that Software Engineers love https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ide-that-software-engineers-love — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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The first episode of The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast is out. Expect similar episodes every other Wednesday. You can add the podcast in your favorite podcast player, and have future episodes downloaded automatically. Listen now on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube. Brought to you by: • Codeium: ​​Join the 700K+ developers using the IT-approved AI-powered code assistant. • TLDR: Keep up with tech in 5 minutes — On the first episode of the Pragmatic Engineer Podcast, I am joined by Simon Willison. Simon is one of the best-known software engineers experimenting with LLMs to boost his own productivity: he’s been doing this for more than three years, blogging about it in the open. Simon is the creator of Datasette, an open-source tool for exploring and publishing data. He works full-time developing open-source tools for data journalism, centered on Datasette and SQLite. Previously, he was an engineering director at Eventbrite, joining through the acquisition of Lanyrd, a Y Combinator startup he co-founded in 2010. Simon is also a co-creator of the Django Web Framework. He has been blogging about web development since the early 2000s. In today’s conversation, we dive deep into the realm of Gen AI and talk about the following:  • Simon’s initial experiments with LLMs and coding tools • Why fine-tuning is generally a waste of time—and when it’s not • RAG: an overview • Interacting with GPTs voice mode • Simon’s day-to-day LLM stack • Common misconceptions about LLMs and ethical gray areas  • How Simon’s productivity has increased and his generally optimistic view on these tools • Tips, tricks, and hacks for interacting with GenAI tools • And more! I hope you enjoy this episode. — In this episode, we cover: (02:15) Welcome (05:28) Simon’s ‘scary’ experience with ChatGPT (10:58) Simon’s initial experiments with LLMs and coding tools (12:21) The languages that LLMs excel at (14:50) To start LLMs by understanding the theory, or by playing around? (16:35) Fine-tuning: what it is, and why it’s mostly a waste of time (18:03) Where fine-tuning works (18:31) RAG: an explanation (21:34) The expense of running testing on AI (23:15) Simon’s current AI stack  (29:55) Common misconceptions about using LLM tools (30:09) Simon’s stack – continued  (32:51) Learnings from running local models (33:56) The impact of Firebug and the introduction of open-source  (39:42) How Simon’s productivity has increased using LLM tools (41:55) Why most people should limit themselves to 3-4 programming languages (45:18) Addressing ethical issues and resistance to using generative AI (49:11) Are LLMs are plateauing? Is AGI overhyped? (55:45) Coding vs. professional coding, looking ahead (57:27) The importance of systems thinking for software engineers  (1:01:00) Simon’s advice for experienced engineers (1:06:29) Rapid-fire questions — Where to find Simon Willison: • X: https://x.com/simonw • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonwillison/ • Website: https://simonwillison.net/ • Mastodon: https://fedi.simonwillison.net/@simon — Referenced: • Simon’s LLM project: https://github.com/simonw/llm • Jeremy Howard’s Fast Ai: https://www.fast.ai/ • jq programming language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jq_(programming_language) • Datasette: https://datasette.io/ • GPT Code Interpreter: https://platform.openai.com/docs/assistants/tools/code-interpreter • Open Ai Playground: https://platform.openai.com/playground/chat • Advent of Code: https://adventofcode.com/ • Rust programming language: https://www.rust-lang.org/ • Applied AI Software Engineering: RAG: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/rag • Claude: https://claude.ai/ • Claude 3.5 sonnet: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-3-5-sonnet • ChatGPT can now see, hear, and speak: https://openai.com/index/chatgpt-can-now-see-hear-and-speak/ • GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot • What are Artifacts and how do I use them?: https://support.anthropic.com/en/articles/9487310-what-are-artifacts-and-how-do-i-use-them • Large Language Models on the command line: https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jun/17/cli-language-models/ • Llama: https://www.llama.com/ • MLC chat on the app store: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mlc-chat/id6448482937 • Firebug: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebug_(software)# • NPM: https://www.npmjs.com/ • Django: https://www.djangoproject.com/ • Sourceforge: https://sourceforge.net/ • CPAN: https://www.cpan.org/ • OOP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming • Prolog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog • SML: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_ML • Stabile Diffusion: https://stability.ai/ • Chain of thought prompting: https://www.promptingguide.ai/techniques/cot • Cognition AI: https://www.cognition.ai/ • In the Race to Artificial General Intelligence, Where’s the Finish Line?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-does-artificial-general-intelligence-actually-mean/ • Black swan theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory • Copilot workspace: https://githubnext.com/projects/copilot-workspace • Designing Data-Intensive Applications: The Big Ideas Behind Reliable, Scalable, and Maintainable Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive-Applications-Reliable-Maintainable/dp/1449373321 • Bluesky Global: https://www.blueskyglobal.org/ • The Atrocity Archives (Laundry Files #1): https://www.amazon.com/Atrocity-Archives-Laundry-Files/dp/0441013651 • Rivers of London: https://www.amazon.com/Rivers-London-Ben-Aaronovitch/dp/1625676158/ • Vanilla JavaScript: http://vanilla-js.com/ • jQuery: https://jquery.com/ • Fly.io: https://fly.io/ — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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