Brought to You By: •⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. Companies like Graphite, Notion, and Brex rely on Statsig to measure the impact of the pace they ship. Get a 30-day enterprise trial here. •⁠ Linear – The system for modern product development. Linear is a heavy user of Swift: they just redesigned their native iOS app using their own take on Apple’s Liquid Glass design language. The new app is about speed and performance – just like Linear is. Check it out. — Chris Lattner is one of the most influential engineers of the past two decades. He created the LLVM compiler infrastructure and the Swift programming language – and Swift opened iOS development to a broader group of engineers. With Mojo, he’s now aiming to do the same for AI, by lowering the barrier to programming AI applications. I sat down with Chris in San Francisco, to talk language design, lessons on designing Swift and Mojo, and – of course! – compilers. It’s hard to find someone who is as enthusiastic and knowledgeable about compilers as Chris is! We also discussed why experts often resist change even when current tools slow them down, what he learned about AI and hardware from his time across both large and small engineering teams, and why compiler engineering remains one of the best ways to understand how software really works. — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:35) Compilers in the early 2000s (04:48) Why Chris built LLVM (08:24) GCC vs. LLVM (09:47) LLVM at Apple  (19:25) How Chris got support to go open source at Apple (20:28) The story of Swift  (24:32) The process for designing a language  (31:00) Learnings from launching Swift  (35:48) Swift Playgrounds: making coding accessible (40:23) What Swift solved and the technical debt it created (47:28) AI learnings from Google and Tesla  (51:23) SiFive: learning about hardware engineering (52:24) Mojo’s origin story (57:15) Modular’s bet on a two-level stack (1:01:49) Compiler shortcomings (1:09:11) Getting started with Mojo  (1:15:44) How big is Modular, as a company? (1:19:00) AI coding tools the Modular team uses  (1:22:59) What kind of software engineers Modular hires  (1:25:22) A programming language for LLMs? No thanks (1:29:06) Why you should study and understand compilers — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: •⁠ AI Engineering in the real world • The AI Engineering stack • Uber's crazy YOLO app rewrite, from the front seat • Python, Go, Rust, TypeScript and AI with Armin Ronacher • Microsoft’s developer tools roots — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Brought to You By: •⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. Statsig built a complete set of data tools that allow engineering teams to measure the impact of their work. This toolkit is SO valuable to so many teams, that OpenAI - who was a huge user of Statsig - decided to acquire the company, the news announced last week. Talk about validation! Check out Statsig. •⁠ Linear – The system for modern product development. Here’s an interesting story: OpenAI switched to Linear as a way to establish a shared vocabulary between teams. Every project now follows the same lifecycle, uses the same labels, and moves through the same states. Try Linear for yourself. — The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast is back with the Fall 2025 season. Expect new episodes to be published on most Wednesdays, looking ahead. Code Complete is one of the most enduring books on software engineering. Steve McConnell wrote the 900-page handbook just five years into his career, capturing what he wished he’d known when starting out. Decades later, the lessons remain relevant, and Code Complete remains a best-seller. In this episode, we talk about what has aged well, what needed updating in the second edition, and the broader career principles Steve has developed along the way. From his “career pyramid” model to his critique of “lily pad hopping,” and why periods of working in fast-paced, all-in environments can be so rewarding, the emphasis throughout is on taking ownership of your career and making deliberate choices. We also discuss: • Top-down vs. bottom-up design and why most engineers default to one approach • Why rewriting code multiple times makes it better • How taking a year off to write Code Complete crystallized key lessons • The 3 areas software designers need to understand, and why focusing only on technology may be the most limiting  • And much more! Steve rarely gives interviews, so I hope you enjoy this conversation, which we recorded in Seattle. — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:31) How and why Steve wrote Code Complete (08:08) What code construction is and how it differs from software development (11:12) Top-down vs. bottom-up design approach (14:46) Why design documents frustrate some engineers (16:50) The case for rewriting everything three times (20:15) Steve’s career before and after Code Complete (27:47) Steve’s career advice (44:38) Three areas software designers need to understand (48:07) Advice when becoming a manager, as a developer (53:02) The importance of managing your energy (57:07) Early Microsoft and why startups are a culture of intense focus (1:04:14) What changed in the second edition of Code Complete  (1:10:50) AI’s impact on software development: Steve’s take (1:17:45) Code reviews and GenAI (1:19:58) Why engineers are becoming more full-stack  (1:21:40) Could AI be the exception to “no silver bullets?” (1:26:31) Steve’s advice for engineers on building a meaningful career — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • What changed in 50 years of computing • The past and future of modern backend practices • The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout • AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype – with Simon Willison (co-creator of Django)  • TDD, AI agents and coding – with Kent Beck — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Supported by Our Partners •⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. • Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform.  • Augment Code — AI coding assistant that pro engineering teams love — GitHub recently turned 17 years old—but how did it start, how has it evolved, and what does the future look like as AI reshapes developer workflows? In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Thomas Dohmke, CEO of GitHub. Thomas has been a GitHub user for 16 years and an employee for 7. We talk about GitHub’s early architecture, its remote-first operating model, and how the company is navigating AI—from Copilot to agents. We also discuss why GitHub hires junior engineers, how the company handled product-market fit early on, and why being a beloved tool can make shipping harder at times. Other topics we discuss include: • How GitHub’s architecture evolved beyond its original Rails monolith • How GitHub runs as a remote-first company—and why they rarely use email  • GitHub’s rigorous approach to security • Why GitHub hires junior engineers • GitHub’s acquisition by Microsoft • The launch of Copilot and how it’s reshaping software development • Why GitHub sees AI agents as tools, not a replacement for engineers • And much more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:25) GitHub’s modern tech stack (08:11) From cloud-first to hybrid: How GitHub handles infrastructure (13:08) How GitHub’s remote-first culture shapes its operations (18:00) Former and current internal tools including Haystack (21:12) GitHub’s approach to security  (24:30) The current size of GitHub, including security and engineering teams (25:03) GitHub’s intern program, and why they are hiring junior engineers (28:27) Why AI isn’t a replacement for junior engineers  (34:40) A mini-history of GitHub  (39:10) Why GitHub hit product market fit so quickly  (43:44) The invention of pull requests (44:50) How GitHub enables offline work (46:21) How monetization has changed at GitHub since the acquisition  (48:00) 2014 desktop application releases  (52:10) The Microsoft acquisition  (1:01:57) Behind the scenes of GitHub’s quiet period  (1:06:42) The release of Copilot and its impact (1:14:14) Why GitHub decided to open-source Copilot extensions (1:20:01) AI agents and the myth of disappearing engineering jobs (1:26:36) Closing — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • AI Engineering in the real world • The AI Engineering stack •  How Linux is built with Greg Kroah-Hartman •  Stacked Diffs (and why you should know about them) •  50 Years of Microsoft and developer tools — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Supported by Our Partners •⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. •⁠ Sinch⁠ — Connect with customers at every step of their journey. •⁠ Modal⁠ — The cloud platform for building AI applications. — How has Microsoft changed since its founding in 1975, especially in how it builds tools for developers? In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with Scott Guthrie, Executive Vice President of Cloud and AI at Microsoft. Scott has been with the company for 28 years. He built the first prototype of ASP.NET, led the Windows Phone team, led up Azure, and helped shape many of Microsoft’s most important developer platforms. We talk about Microsoft’s journey from building early dev tools to becoming a top cloud provider—and how it actively worked to win back and grow its developer base. In this episode, we cover: • Microsoft’s early years building developer tools  • Why Visual Basic faced resistance from devs back in the day: even though it simplified development at the time • How .NET helped bring a new generation of server-side developers into Microsoft’s ecosystem • Why Windows Phone didn’t succeed  • The 90s Microsoft dev stack: docs, debuggers, and more • How Microsoft Azure went from being the #7 cloud provider to the #2 spot today • Why Microsoft created VS Code • How VS Code and open source led to the acquisition of GitHub • What Scott’s excited about in the future of developer tools and AI • And much more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:25) Microsoft’s early years building developer tools (06:15) How Microsoft’s developer tools helped Windows succeed (08:00) Microsoft’s first tools were built to allow less technically savvy people to build things (11:00) A case for embracing the technology that’s coming (14:11) Why Microsoft built Visual Studio and .NET (19:54) Steve Ballmer’s speech about .NET (22:04) The origins of C# and Anders Hejlsberg’s impact on Microsoft  (25:29) The 90’s Microsoft stack, including documentation, debuggers, and more (30:17) How productivity has changed over the past 10 years  (32:50) Why Gergely was a fan of Windows Phone—and Scott’s thoughts on why it didn’t last (36:43) Lessons from working on (and fixing)  Azure under Satya Nadella  (42:50) Codeplex and the acquisition of GitHub (48:52) 2014: Three bold projects to win the hearts of developers (55:40) What Scott’s excited about in new developer tools and cloud computing  (59:50) Why Scott thinks AI will enhance productivity but create more engineering jobs — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • Microsoft is dogfooding AI dev tools’ future • Microsoft’s developer tools roots • Why are Cloud Development Environments spiking in popularity, now? • Engineering career paths at Big Tech and scaleups • How Linux is built with Greg Kroah-Hartman — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Supported by Our Partners •⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. •⁠ Sinch⁠ — Connect with customers at every step of their journey. •⁠ Cortex⁠ — Your Portal to Engineering Excellence. — What does it take to land a job as an AI Engineer—and thrive in the role? In this episode of Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Janvi Kalra, currently an AI Engineer at OpenAI. Janvi shares how she broke into tech with internships at top companies, landed a full-time software engineering role at Coda, and later taught herself the skills to move into AI Engineering: by things like building projects in her free time, joining hackathons, and ultimately proving herself and earning a spot on Coda’s first AI Engineering team. In our conversation, we dive into the world of AI Engineering and discuss three types of AI companies, how to assess them based on profitability and growth, and practical advice for landing your dream job in the field. We also discuss the following:  • How Janvi landed internships at Google and Microsoft, and her tips for interview prepping • A framework for evaluating AI startups • An overview of what an AI Engineer does • A mini curriculum for self-learning AI: practical tools that worked for Janvi • The Coda project that impressed CEO Shishir Mehrotra and sparked Coda Brain • Janvi’s role at OpenAI and how the safety team shapes responsible AI • How OpenAI blends startup speed with big tech scale • Why AI Engineers must be ready to scrap their work and start over • Why today’s engineers need to be product-minded, design-aware, full-stack, and focused on driving business outcomes • And much more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:31) How Janvi got her internships at Google and Microsoft (03:35) How Janvi prepared for her coding interviews  (07:11) Janvi’s experience interning at Google (08:59) What Janvi worked on at Microsoft  (11:35) Why Janvi chose to work for a startup after college (15:00) How Janvi picked Coda  (16:58) Janvi’s criteria for picking a startup now  (18:20) How Janvi evaluates ‘customer obsession’  (19:12) Fast—an example of the downside of not doing due diligence (21:38) How Janvi made the jump to Coda’s AI team (25:48) What an AI Engineer does  (27:30) How Janvi developed her AI Engineering skills through hackathons (30:34) Janvi’s favorite AI project at Coda: Workspace Q&A  (37:40) Learnings from interviewing at 46 companies (40:44) Why Janvi decided to get experience working for a model company  (43:17) Questions Janvi asks to determine growth and profitability (45:28) How Janvi got an offer at OpenAI, and an overview of the interview process (49:08) What Janvi does at OpenAI  (51:01) What makes OpenAI unique  (52:30) The shipping process at OpenAI (55:41) Surprising learnings from AI Engineering  (57:50) How AI might impact new graduates  (1:02:19) The impact of AI tools on coding—what is changing, and what remains the same (1:07:51) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: •⁠ AI Engineering in the real world •⁠ The AI Engineering stack •⁠ Building, launching, and scaling ChatGPT Images — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Supported by Our Partners • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. • Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform.  • Formation — Level up your career and compensation with Formation. — In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by a senior software engineer and cartoonist, Manu Cornet. Manu spent over a decade at Google, doing both backend and frontend development. He also spent a year and a half at Twitter before Elon Musk purchased it and rebranded it to X. But what Manu is most known for are his hilarious internet comics about the tech world, including his famous org chart comic from 2011 about Facebook, Apple, Amazon, and Microsoft. In today’s conversation, we explore many of his comics, discuss the meaning behind them, and talk about the following topics:  • The viral org chart comic that captured the structure of Big Tech companies • Why Google is notorious for confusing product names • The comic that ended up on every door at Google • How Google’s 20% time fostered innovation—and what projects came from it • How one of Manu’s comics predicted Google Stadia’s failure—and the reasons behind it • The value of connecting to users directly  • Twitter’s climate before and after Elon Musk’s acquisition and the mass layoffs that followed • And more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:01) Manu’s org structure comic  (07:10) Manu’s “Who Sues Who” comic (09:15) Google vs. Amazon comic (14:10) Confusing names at Google (20:00) Different approaches to sharing information within companies (22:20) The two ways of doing things at Google (25:15) Manu’s code reviews comic (27:45) The comic that was printed on every single door of Google (30:55) An explanation of 20% at Google (36:00) Gmail Labs and Google Stadia (41:36) Manu’s time at Twitter and the threat of Elon Musk buying (47:07) How Manu helped Gergely with a bug on Twitter (49:05) Musk’s acquirement of Twitter and the resulting layoffs (59:00) Manu’s comic about his disillusionment with Twitter and Google (1:02:37) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • How Manu creates comics • Consolidating technologies • Is Big Tech becoming more cutthroat? — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Brought to you by: • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images. • Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control. — Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition. He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group. Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss: • What it means to be an IBM Fellow • The evolution of the field of software development • How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML • Pivotal moments in software development history • How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years • Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates! • Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs) • Advice to less experienced software engineers • … and much more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM (03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems (09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to (11:27) The evolution of the field of software development (16:23) An overview of the Booch method (20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method (22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike (25:35) Grady’s work with Bjarne Stroustrup (26:41) ROSE and working with the commercial sector (30:19) How Grady built UML with Ibar Jacobson and James Rumbaugh (36:08) An explanation of UML and why it was a mistake to turn it into a programming language (40:25) The IBM acquisition and why Grady declined Bill Gates’s job offer  (43:38) Why UML is no longer used in industry  (52:04) Grady’s thoughts on formal methods (53:33) How the software architect role changed over time (1:01:46) Disruptive changes and major leaps in software development (1:07:26) Grady’s early work in AI (1:12:47) Grady’s work with Johnson Space Center (1:16:41) Grady’s thoughts on LLMs  (1:19:47) Why Grady thinks we are a long way off from sentient AI  (1:25:18) Grady’s advice to less experienced software engineers (1:27:20) What’s next for Grady (1:29:39) Rapid fire round — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • The Past and Future of Modern Backend Practices https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices  • What Changed in 50 Years of Computing https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing  • AI Tooling for Software Engineers: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024 — Where to find Grady Booch: • X: https://x.com/grady_booch • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gradybooch • Website: https://computingthehumanexperience.com Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/ • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/ • X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz — References and Transcripts: See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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