Thomas in't Veld, founder of Tasman Analytics, joined Yuliia and Dumke to discuss why data projects fail: teams obsess over tooling while ignoring proper data modeling and business alignment. Drawing from building analytics for 70-80 companies, Thomas explains why the best data model never changes unless the business changes, and how his team acts as "data therapists" forcing marketing and sales to agree on fundamental definitions. He shares his controversial take that data modeling sits more in analysis than engineering. Another hot take: analytics engineering is merging back into data engineering, and why showing off your DAG at meetups completely misses the point - business understanding is the critical differentiator, not your technology stack.

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Vijay Subramanian, founder and CEO of Trace, talks about metric trees - a new approach to data modeling that directly captures a company's business model. Vijay shares insights from his decade-long experience building data practices at Rent the Runway and explains how the modern data stack has led to a proliferation of dashboards without a coherent way for business consumers to reason about cause, effect, and action. He explores how metric trees differ from and interoperate with other data modeling approaches, serve as a backend for analytical workflows, and provide concrete examples like modeling Uber's revenue drivers and customer journeys. Vijay also discusses the potential of AI agents operating on metric trees to execute workflows, organizational patterns for defining inputs and outputs with business teams, and a vision for analytics that becomes invisible infrastructure embedded in everyday decisions.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData teams everywhere face the same problem: they're forcing ML models, streaming data, and real-time processing through orchestration tools built for simple ETL. The result? Inflexible infrastructure that can't adapt to different workloads. That's why Cash App and Cisco rely on Prefect. Cash App's fraud detection team got what they needed - flexible compute options, isolated environments for custom packages, and seamless data exchange between workflows. Each model runs on the right infrastructure, whether that's high-memory machines or distributed compute. Orchestration is the foundation that determines whether your data team ships or struggles. ETL, ML model training, AI Engineering, Streaming - Prefect runs it all from ingestion to activation in one platform. Whoop and 1Password also trust Prefect for their data operations. If these industry leaders use Prefect for critical workflows, see what it can do for you at dataengineeringpodcast.com/prefect.Data migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Vijay Subramanian about metric trees and how they empower more effective and adaptive analyticsInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you describe what metric trees are and their purpose?How do metric trees relate to metric/semantic layers?What are the shortcomings of existing data modeling frameworks that prevent effective use of those assets?How do metric trees build on top of existing investments in dimensional data models?What are some strategies for engaging with the business to identify metrics and their relationships?What are your recommendations for storage, representation, and retrieval of metric trees?How do metric trees fit into the overall lifecycle of organizational data workflows?When creating any new data asset it introduces overhead of maintenance, monitoring, and evolution. How do metric trees fit into existing testing and validation frameworks that teams rely on for dimensional modeling?What are some of the key differences in useful evaluation/testing that teams need to develop for metric trees?How do metric trees assist in context engineering for AI-powered self-serve access to organizational data?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen metric trees used?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on metric trees and operationalizing them at Trace?When is a metric tree the wrong abstraction?What do you have planned for the future of Trace and applications of metric trees?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links Metric TreeTraceModern Data StackHadoopVerticaLuigidbtRalph KimballBill InmonMetric LayerDimensional Data WarehouseMaster Data ManagementData GovernanceFinancial P&L (Profit and Loss)EBITDA ==Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortizationThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

In this discussion, I sit down with data veterans Remco Broekmans and Marco Wobben to explore why so many data projects fail. They argue that the problem isn't the technology, but a fundamental misunderstanding of communication, culture, and long-term strategy.The conversation goes deep into the critical shift from being a "hardcore techie" to focusing on translating business needs into data models. They use the classic "involved party" data modeling pattern as a prime example of how abstract IT jargon creates a massive disconnect with the business.Marco shares a fascinating (and surprising) case study of the Dutch Railroad organization, which has been engaged in an 18-year information modeling "program" - not a project - to manage its immense complexity. This sparks a deep dive into the cultural and work-ethic differences between the US and Europe, contrasting the American short-term, ROI-driven "project" mindset with the European capacity for long-term, foundational "programs".Finally, they tackle the role of AI. Is it a silver bullet or just the latest shiny object? They conclude that AI's best use is as an "intern" or "assistant", a tool to brainstorm, ask questions, and handle initial prototyping, but never as a replacement for the deep, human-centric work of understanding a business.Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction01:09 - Marco Wobben introduces his 25-year journey in information modeling.01:56 - Remco Broekmans reintroduces himself and his focus on the communication aspect of data.03:22 - The progression from hardcore techie to focusing on communication over technology.08:16 - Why is communication in data and IT projects so difficult? 09:49 - The "Involved Party" Problem: A perfect example of where IT communication goes wrong with the business.13:35 - The essence of IT is automating the communication that happens on the business side.18:39 - Discussing a client with 20,000 distinct business terms in their information model.21:55 - The story of the Dutch Railroad's 18-year information modeling program that reduced incident response from 4 hours to 2 seconds.27:25 - Project vs. Program: A key mindset difference between the US and Europe.34:18 - The danger of chasing shiny new tools like AI without getting the fundamentals right first.39:55 - Where does AI fit into the world of data modeling? 43:34 - Why you can't trust AI to be the expert, especially with specialized business jargon.47:18 - The role of risk in trusting AI, using a self-driving car analogy.53:27 - Cultural differences in work pressure and ethics between the US and the Netherlands.59:29 - Why personality and communication skills are more important than a PhD for data modelers.01:03:38 - What is the purpose of an AI-run company with no human benefit? 01:11:21 - Using AI as an instructive tool to improve your own skills, not just to get an answer.01:14:12 - How AI can be used as a "sidekick" to ask dumb questions and help you think.01:18:00 - Where to find Marco and Remco online

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Serge Gershkovich, head of product at SQL DBM, talks about the socio-technical aspects of data modeling. Serge shares his background in data modeling and highlights its importance as a collaborative process between business stakeholders and data teams. He debunks common misconceptions that data modeling is optional or secondary, emphasizing its crucial role in ensuring alignment between business requirements and data structures. The conversation covers challenges in complex environments, the impact of technical decisions on data strategy, and the evolving role of AI in data management. Serge stresses the need for business stakeholders' involvement in data initiatives and a systematic approach to data modeling, warning against relying solely on technical expertise without considering business alignment.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.Enterprises today face an enormous challenge: they’re investing billions into Snowflake and Databricks, but without strong foundations, those investments risk becoming fragmented, expensive, and hard to govern. And that’s especially evident in large, complex enterprise data environments. That’s why companies like DirecTV and Pfizer rely on SqlDBM. Data modeling may be one of the most traditional practices in IT, but it remains the backbone of enterprise data strategy. In today’s cloud era, that backbone needs a modern approach built natively for the cloud, with direct connections to the very platforms driving your business forward. Without strong modeling, data management becomes chaotic, analytics lose trust, and AI initiatives fail to scale. SqlDBM ensures enterprises don’t just move to the cloud—they maximize their ROI by creating governed, scalable, and business-aligned data environments. If global enterprises are using SqlDBM to tackle the biggest challenges in data management, analytics, and AI, isn’t it worth exploring what it can do for yours? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/sqldbm to learn more.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Serge Gershkovich about how and why data modeling is a sociotechnical endeavorInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by describing the activities that you think of when someone says the term "data modeling"?What are the main groupings of incomplete or inaccurate definitions that you typically encounter in conversation on the topic?How do those conceptions of the problem lead to challenges and bottlenecks in execution?Data modeling is often associated with data warehouse design, but it also extends to source systems and unstructured/semi-structured assets. How does the inclusion of other data localities help in the overall success of a data/domain modeling effort?Another aspect of data modeling that often consumes a substantial amount of debate is which pattern to adhere to (star/snowflake, data vault, one big table, anchor modeling, etc.). What are some of the ways that you have found effective to remove that as a stumbling block when first developing an organizational domain representation?While the overall purpose of data modeling is to provide a digital representation of the business processes, there are inevitable technical decisions to be made. What are the most significant ways that the underlying technical systems can help or hinder the goals of building a digital twin of the business?What impact (positive and negative) are you seeing from the introduction of LLMs into the workflow of data modeling?How does tool use (e.g. MCP connection to warehouse/lakehouse) help when developing the transformation logic for achieving a given domain representation? What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen organizations address the data modeling lifecycle?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working with organizations implementing a data modeling effort?What are the overall trends in the ecosystem that you are monitoring related to data modeling practices?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Links sqlDBMSAPJoe ReisERD == Entity Relation DiagramMaster Data ManagementdbtData ContractsData Modeling With Snowflake book by Serge (affiliate link)Type 2 DimensionData VaultStar SchemaAnchor ModelingRalph KimballBill InmonSixth Normal FormMCP == Model Context ProtocolThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Madison Schott joins me to chat about about her journey from working as an analytics engineer to creating content about dbt, SQL, data modeling, and more.

John Giles joins me to discuss his new book, "The Data Elephant in the Board Room," conceptual modeling, the unreasonable effectiveness of data modeling patterns, and more.

In this touching episode, we center the voice of middle school student leader Karime Reyes who helped to spearhead a radical redesign of her school’s first week last August. In conversation with Peer Resource class teacher Tamar Sberlo, Karime brings insight and depth to what students really want in a classroom, what it means to belong, and how it felt to be part of a school transformation process. We also get a window into Tamar’s “low control” teaching style and the ways she strives to give learners choice and voice. Walk with us as we enter the world of MLK Jr Middle School in San Francisco and see the Street Data model come to life!

For Further Learning: 

Watch Sir Ken Robinson’s mind-blowing video (~12 minutes) on “Changing Education Paradigms” to situate the conversation with Tamar and Karime in a historical context. Courageous Conversations About Race: A Field Guide for Achieving Equity in Schools by Glenn E Singleton For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood… and the Rest of Y’all Too: Reality Pedagogy and Urban Education by Chris Emdin

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Bartosz Mikulski talks about preparing data for AI applications. Bartosz shares his journey from data engineering to MLOps and emphasizes the importance of data testing over software development in AI contexts. He discusses the types of data assets required for AI applications, including extensive test datasets, especially in generative AI, and explains the differences in data requirements for various AI application styles. The conversation also explores the skills data engineers need to transition into AI, such as familiarity with vector databases and new data modeling strategies, and highlights the challenges of evolving AI applications, including frequent reprocessing of data when changing chunking strategies or embedding models.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details. Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Bartosz Mikulski about how to prepare data for use in AI applicationsInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by outlining some of the main categories of data assets that are needed for AI applications?How does the nature of the application change those requirements? (e.g. RAG app vs. agent, etc.)How do the different assets map to the stages of the application lifecycle?What are some of the common roles and divisions of responsibility that you see in the construction and operation of a "typical" AI application?For data engineers who are used to data warehousing/BI, what are the skills that map to AI apps?What are some of the data modeling patterns that are needed to support AI apps?chunking strategies metadata managementWhat are the new categories of data that data engineers need to manage in the context of AI applications?agent memory generation/evolution conversation history managementdata collection for fine tuningWhat are some of the notable evolutions in the space of AI applications and their patterns that have happened in the past ~1-2 years that relate to the responsibilities of data engineers?What are some of the skills gaps that teams should be aware of and identify training opportunities for?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen data teams address the needs of AI applications?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on AI applications and their reliance on data?What are some of the emerging trends that you are paying particular attention to?Contact Info WebsiteLinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links SparkRayChunking StrategiesHypothetical document embeddingsModel Fine TuningPrompt CompressionThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

In data modeling - and pretty much anything else - do you choose "old school" or "new school"? In other words, do you move slow and methodically or fast?

Remco Broekmans and I chat about data modeling and the business, Data Vault, and using AI to accelerate data modeling.

Jamie Davidson (Chief Product Officer at Omni, Former VP of Product at Looker) joins me to chat about "modern" data modeling, going from a startup to Google and back to a startup, and much more.

Omni: https://omni.co/

It's 2025! We made it! ;)

In this podcast, I rant about why data modeling matters more than ever, AI, and why humans will seek out "human" things in 2025 and beyond.

❤️ Your support means a lot. Please like and rate this podcast on your favorite podcast platform.

🤓 My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

It's December 31, 2024. Gordon Wong and I wrap up 2024 and chat about what we're excited about in 2025 in data and otherwise.

❤️ If you like my podcasts, please like and rate it on your favorite podcast platform.

🤓 My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

Matt Housley and I have a LONG chat about working in consulting, leaving your job, AI, the job market, our thoughts on what's coming in 2025, and much more.

❤️ If you like my podcasts, please like and rate it on your favorite podcast platform.

🤓 My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

This morning, a great article came across my feed that gave me PTSD, asking if Iceberg is the Hadoop of the Modern Data Stack?

In this rant, I bring the discussion back to a central question you should ask with any hot technology - do you need it at all? Do you need a tool built for the top 1% of companies at a sufficient data scale? Or is a spreadsheet good enough?

Link: https://blog.det.life/apache-iceberg-the-hadoop-of-the-modern-data-stack-c83f63a4ebb9

❤️ If you like my podcasts, please like and rate it on your favorite podcast platform.

🤓 My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast the inimitable Max Beauchemin talks about reusability in data pipelines. The conversation explores the "write everything twice" problem, where similar pipelines are built without code reuse, and discusses the challenges of managing different SQL dialects and relational databases. Max also touches on the evolving role of data engineers, drawing parallels with front-end engineering, and suggests that generative AI could facilitate knowledge capture and distribution in data engineering. He encourages the community to share reference implementations and templates to foster collaboration and innovation, and expresses hopes for a future where code reuse becomes more prevalent.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm joined again by Max Beauchemin to talk about the challenges of reusability in data pipelinesInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by sharing your current thesis on the opportunities and shortcomings of code and component reusability in the data context?What are some ways that you think about what constitutes a "component" in this context?The data ecosystem has arguably grown more varied and nuanced in recent years. At the same time, the number and maturity of tools has grown. What is your view on the current trend in productivity for data teams and practitioners?What do you see as the core impediments to building more reusable and general-purpose solutions in data engineering?How can we balance the actual needs of data consumers against their requests (whether well- or un-informed) to help increase our ability to better design our workflows for reuse?In data engineering there are two broad approaches; code-focused or SQL-focused pipelines. In principle one would think that code-focused environments would have better composability. What are you seeing as the realities in your personal experience and what you hear from other teams?When it comes to SQL dialects, dbt offers the option of Jinja macros, whereas SDF and SQLMesh offer automatic translation. There are also tools like PRQL and Malloy that aim to abstract away the underlying SQL. What are the tradeoffs across those options that help or hinder the portability of transformation logic?Which layers of the data stack/steps in the data journey do you see the greatest opportunity for improving the creation of more broadly usable abstractions/reusable elements?low/no code systems for code reuseimpact of LLMs on reusability/compositionimpact of background on industry practices (e.g. DBAs, sysadmins, analysts vs. SWE, etc.)polymorphic data models (e.g. activity schema)What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen teams address composability and reusability of data components?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on data-oriented tools and utilities?What are your hopes and predictions for sharing of code and logic in the future of data engineering?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links Max's Blog PostAirflowSupersetTableauLookerPowerBICohort AnalysisNextJSAirbytePodcast EpisodeFivetranPodcast EpisodeSegmentdbtSQLMeshPodcast EpisodeSparkLAMP StackPHPRelational AlgebraKnowledge GraphPython MarshmallowData Warehouse Lifecycle Toolkit (affiliate link)Entity Centric Data Modeling Blog PostAmplitudeOSACon presentationol-data-platform Tobias' team's data platform codeThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

We’re improving DataFramed, and we need your help! We want to hear what you have to say about the show, and how we can make it more enjoyable for you—find out more here. We’re often caught chasing the dream of “self-serve” data—a place where data empowers stakeholders to answer their questions without a data expert at every turn. But what does it take to reach that point? How do you shape tools that empower teams to explore and act on data without the usual bottlenecks? And with the growing presence of natural language tools and AI, is true self-service within reach, or is there still more to the journey? Sameer Al-Sakran is the CEO at Metabase, a low-code self-service analytics company. Sameer has a background in both data science and data engineering so he's got a practitioner's perspective as well as executive insight. Previously, he was CTO at Expa and Blackjet, and the founder of SimpleHadoop and Adopilot. In the episode, Richie and Sameer explore self-serve analytics, the evolution of data tools, GenAI vs AI agents, semantic layers, the challenges of implementing self-serve analytics, the problem with data-driven culture, encouraging efficiency in data teams, the parallels between UX and data projects, exciting trends in analytics, and much more. Links Mentioned in the Show: MetabaseConnect with SameerArticles from Metabase on jargon, information budgets, analytics mistakes, and data model mistakesCourse: Introduction to Data CultureRelated Episode: Towards Self-Service Data Engineering with Taylor Brown, Co-Founder and COO at FivetranRewatch Sessions from RADAR: Forward Edition New to DataCamp? Learn on the go using the DataCamp mobile appEmpower your business with world-class data and AI skills with DataCamp for business

People often ask me for career advice. In a tough job market where people are sending out thousands of resumes and hearing nothing back, I notice a lot of people have weak networks and are unknown to the companies they're applying to. This results in lots of frustration and disappointment for job seekers.

Is there a better way? Yes. People need to know who you are. Obscurity is your enemy.

Also, the name of the Friday show changed because I can't seem to keep things to five minutes ;)

My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

Let's do things the right way, not just the fast way.

My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/

I speak at a lot of conferences, and I've lost track of how many questions I've answered. Since conferences are top of mind for me right now, here are some tips for asking good (and bad) questions of speakers.

My works:

📕Fundamentals of Data Engineering: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fundamentals-of-data/9781098108298/

🎥 Deeplearning.ai Data Engineering Certificate: https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/data-engineering

🔥Practical Data Modeling: https://practicaldatamodeling.substack.com/

🤓 My SubStack: https://joereis.substack.com/