Building B2B analytics and AI tools that people will actually pay for and use is hard. The reality is, your product won’t deliver ROI if no one’s using it. That’s why first principles thinking says you have to solve the usage problem first.

In this episode, I’ll explain why the key to user adoption is designing with the flow of work—building your solution around the natural workflows of your users to minimize the behavior changes you’re asking them to make. When users clearly see the value in your product, it becomes easier to sell and removes many product-related blockers along the way.

We’ll explore how product design impacts sales, the difference between buyers and users in enterprise contexts, and why challenging the “data/AI-first” mindset is essential. I’ll also share practical ways to align features with user needs, reduce friction, and drive long-term adoption and impact.

If you’re ready to move beyond the dashboard and start building products that truly fit the way people work, this episode is for you.

Highlights/Skip to: 

The core argument: why solving for user adoption first helps demonstrate ROI and facilitate sales in B2B analytics and AI products  (1:34) How showing the value to actual end users—not just buyers—makes it easier to sell your product (2:33) Why designing for outcomes instead of outputs (dashboards, etc) leads to better adoption and long-term product value (8:16) How to “see” beyond users’ surface-level feature requests and solutions so you can solve for the actual, unspoken need—leading to an indispensable product (10:23) Reframing feature requests as design-actionable problems (12:07)  Solving for unspoken needs vs. customer-requested features and functions (15:51) Why “disruption” is the wrong approach for product development (21:19)

Quotes: 

“Customers’ tolerance for poorly designed B2B software has decreased significantly over the last decade. People now expect enterprise tools to function as smoothly and intuitively as the consumer apps they use every day. 

Clunky software that slows down workflows is no longer acceptable, regardless of the data it provides. If your product frustrates users or requires extra effort to achieve results, adoption will suffer.

Even the most powerful AI or analytics engine cannot compensate for a confusing or poorly structured interface. Enterprises now demand experiences that are seamless, efficient, and aligned with real workflows. 

This shift means that product design is no longer a secondary consideration; it is critical to commercial success.  Founders and product leaders must prioritize usability, clarity, and delight in every interaction. Software that is difficult to use increases the risk of churn, lengthens sales cycles, and diminishes perceived value. Products must anticipate user needs and deliver solutions that integrate naturally into existing workflows. 

The companies that succeed are the ones that treat user experience as a strategic differentiator. Ignoring this trend creates friction, frustration, and missed opportunities for adoption and revenue growth. Design quality is now inseparable from product value and market competitiveness.  The message is clear: if you want your product to be adopted, retain customers, and win in the market, UX must be central to your strategy.”

—

“No user really wants to ‘check a dashboard’ or use a feature for its own sake. Dashboards, charts, and tables are outputs, not solutions. What users care about is completing their tasks, solving their problems, and achieving meaningful results. 

Designing around workflows rather than features ensures your product is indispensable. A workflow-first approach maps your solution to the actual tasks users perform in the real world. 

When we understand the jobs users need to accomplish, we can build products that deliver real value and remove friction. Focusing solely on features or data can create bloated products that users ignore or struggle to use. 

Outputs are meaningless if they do not fit into the context of a user’s work. The key is to translate user needs into actionable workflows and design every element to support those flows. 

This approach reduces cognitive load, improves adoption, and ensures the product's ROI is realized. It also allows you to anticipate challenges and design solutions that make workflows smoother, faster, and more efficient. 

By centering design on actual tasks rather than arbitrary metrics, your product becomes a tool users can’t imagine living without. Workflow-focused design directly ties to measurable outcomes for both end users and buyers. It shifts the conversation from features to value, making adoption, satisfaction, and revenue more predictable.”

—

“Just because a product is built with AI or powerful data capabilities doesn’t mean anyone will adopt it. Long-term value comes from designing solutions that users cannot live without. It’s about creating experiences that take people from frustration to satisfaction to delight. 

Products must fit into users’ natural workflows and improve their performance, efficiency, and outcomes. Buyers' perceived ROI is closely tied to meaningful adoption by end users. If users struggle, churn rises, and financial impact is diminished, regardless of technical sophistication. 

Designing for delight ensures that the product becomes a positive force in the user’s daily work. It strengthens engagement, reduces friction, and builds customer loyalty. 

High-quality UX allows the product to demonstrate value automatically, without constant explanations or hand-holding. Delightful experiences encourage advocacy, referrals, and easier future sales. 

The real power of design lies in aligning technical capabilities with human behavior and workflow. 

When done correctly, this approach transforms a tool into an indispensable part of the user’s job and a demonstrable asset for the business. 

Focusing on usability, satisfaction, and delight creates long-term adoption and retention, which is the ultimate measure of product success.”

—

“Your product should enter the user’s work stream like a raft on a river, moving in the same direction as their workflow. Users should not have to fight the current or stop their flow to use your tool. 

Introducing friction or requiring users to change their behavior increases risk, even if the product delivers ROI. The more naturally your product aligns with existing workflows, the easier it is to adopt and the more likely it is to be retained. 

Products that feel intuitive and effortless become indispensable, reducing conversations about usability during demos. By matching the flow of work, your solution improves satisfaction, accelerates adoption, and enhances perceived value. 

Disrupting workflows without careful observation can create new problems, frustrate users, and slow down sales. The goal is to move users from frustration to satisfaction to delight, all while achieving the intended outcomes. 

Designing with the flow of work ensures that every feature, interface element, and interaction fits seamlessly into the tasks users already perform. It allows users to focus on value instead of figuring out how to use the product. 

This alignment is key to unlocking adoption, retaining customers, and building long-term loyalty. 

Products that resist the natural workflow may demonstrate ROI on paper but fail in practice due to friction and low engagement. 

Success requires designing a product that supports the user’s journey downstream without interruption or extra effort. 

When you achieve this, adoption becomes easier, sales conversations smoother, and long-term retention higher.”

—

On today's Promoted Episode of Experiencing Data, I’m talking with Lucas Thelosen, CEO of Gravity and creator of Orion, an AI analyst transforming how data teams work. Lucas was head of PS for Looker, and eventually became Head of Product for Google’s Data and AI Cloud prior to starting his own data product company. We dig into how his team built Orion, the challenge of keeping AI accurate and trustworthy when doing analytical work, and how they’re thinking about the balance of human control with automation when their product acts as a force multiplier for human analysts.

In addition to talking about the product, we also talk about how Gravity arrived at specific enough use cases for this technology that a market would be willing to pay for, and how they’re thinking about pricing in today’s more “outcomes-based” environment. 

Incidentally, one thing I didn’t know when I first agreed to consider having Gravity and Lucas on my show was that Lucas has been a long-time proponent of data product management and operating with a product mindset. In this episode, he shares the “ah-hah” moment where things clicked for him around building data products in this manner. Lucas shares how pivotal this moment was for him, and how it helped accelerate his career from Looker to Google and now Gravity.

If you’re leading a data team, you’re a forward-thinking CDO, or you’re interested in commercializing your own analytics/AI product, my chat with Lucas should inspire you!  

Highlights/ Skip to:

Lucas’s breakthrough came when he embraced a data product management mindset (02:43) How Lucas thinks about Gravity as being the instrumentalists in an orchestra, conducted by the user (4:31) Finding product-market fit by solving for a common analytics pain point (8:11) Analytics product and dashboard adoption challenges: why dashboards die and thinking of analytics as changing the business gradually (22:25) What outcome-based pricing means for AI and analytics (32:08) The challenge of defining guardrails and ethics for AI-based analytics products [just in case somebody wants to “fudge the numbers”] (46:03) Lucas’ closing thoughts about what AI is unlocking for analysts and how to position your career for the future  (48:35)

Special Bonus for DPLC Community Members Are you a member of the Data Product Leadership Community? After our chat, I invited Lucas to come give a talk about his journey of moving from “data” to “product” and adopting a producty mindset for analytics and AI work. He was more than happy to oblige. Watch for this in late 2025/early 2026 on our monthly webinar and group discussion calendar.

Note: today’s episode is one of my rare Promoted Episodes. Please help support the show by visiting Gravity’s links below:

Quotes from Today’s Episode “The whole point of data and analytics is to help the business evolve. When your reports make people ask new questions, that’s a win. If the conversations today sound different than they did three months ago, it means you’ve done your job, you’ve helped move the business forward.” — Lucas 

“Accuracy is everything. The moment you lose trust, the business, the use case, it's all over. Earning that trust back takes a long time, so we made accuracy our number one design pillar from day one.” — Lucas 

“Language models have changed the game in terms of scale. Suddenly, we’re facing all these new kinds of problems, not just in AI, but in the old-school software sense too. Things like privacy, scalability, and figuring out who’s responsible.” — Brian

“Most people building analytics products have never been analysts, and that’s a huge disadvantage. If data doesn’t drive action, you’ve missed the mark. That’s why so many dashboards die quickly.” — Lucas

“Re: collecting feedback so you know if your UX is good: I generally agree that qualitative feedback is the best place to start, not analytics [on your analytics!] Especially in UX, analytics measure usage aspects of the product, not the subject human experience. Experience is a collection of feelings and perceptions about how something went.” — Brian

Links

Gravity: https://www.bygravity.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thelosen/ Email Lucas and team: [email protected]

In this episode, I’m exploring the mindset shift data professionals need to make when moving into analytics and AI data product management. From how to ask the right questions to designing for meaningful adoption, I share four key ways to think more like a product manager, and less like a deliverables machine, so your data products earn applause instead of a shoulder shrug.

Highlights/ Skip to:

Why shift to analytics and AI data product management (00:34) From accuracy to impact and redefining success with AI and analytical data products  (01:59) Key Idea 1: Moving from question asker (analyst) to problem seeker (product) (04:31) Key Idea 2: Designing change management into solutions; planning for adoption starts in the design phase (12:52) Key Idea 3: Creating tools so useful people can’t imagine working without them. (26:23) Key Idea 4: Solving for unarticulated needs vs. active needs (34:24)

Quotes from Today’s Episode “Too many analytics teams are rewarded for accuracy instead of impact. Analysts give answers, and product people ask questions.The shift from analytics to product thinking isn’t about tools or frameworks, it’s about curiosity.It’s moving from ‘here’s what the data says’ to ‘what problem are we actually trying to solve, and for whom?’That’s where the real leverage is, in asking better questions, not just delivering faster answers.”

“We often mistake usage for success.Adoption only matters if it’s meaningful adoption. A dashboard getting opened a hundred times doesn’t mean it’s valuable... it might just mean people can’t find what they need.Real success is when your users say, ‘I can’t imagine doing my job without this.’That’s the level of usefulness we should be designing for.”

“The most valuable insights aren’t always the ones people ask for. Solving active problems is good, it’s necessary. But the big unlock happens when you start surfacing and solving latent problems, the ones people don’t think to ask for.Those are the moments when users say, ‘Oh wow, that changes everything.’That’s how data teams evolve from service providers to strategic partners.”

“Here’s a simple but powerful shift for data teams: know who your real customer is. Most data teams think their customer is the stakeholder who requested the work… But the real customer is the end user whose life or decision should get better because of it. When you start designing for that person, not just the requester, everything changes: your priorities, your design, even what you choose to measure.”

Links

Need 1:1 help to navigate these questions and align your data product work to your career? Explore my new Cross-Company Group Coaching at designingforanalytics.com/groupcoaching

For peer support: the Data Product Leadership Community where peers are experimenting with these approaches. designingforanalytics.com/community

There are very few people like Stephen Brobst, a legendary tech CTO and "certified data geek," Stephen shares his incredible journey, from his early days in computational physics and building real-time trading systems on Wall Street to becoming the CTO for Teradata and now Ab Initio Software. Stephen provides a masterclass on the evolution of data architecture, tracing the macro trends from early decision support systems to "active data warehousing" and the rise of AI/ML (formerly known as data mining). He dives deep into why metadata-driven architecture is critical for the future and how AI, large language models, and real-time sensor technology will fundamentally reshape industries and eliminate the dashboard as we know it. We also chat about something way cooler, as Stephen discusses his three passions: travel, music, and teaching. He reveals his personal rule of never staying in the same city for more than five consecutive days since 1993 and how he manages a life of constant motion. From his early days DJing punk rock and seeing the Sex Pistols' last concert to his minimalist travel philosophy and ever-growing bucket list, Stephen offers a unique perspective on living a life rich with experience over material possessions. Finally, he offers invaluable advice for the next generation on navigating careers in an AI-driven world and living life to the fullest.

Here are 5 exciting and unique data analyst projects that will build your skills and impress hiring managers! These range from beginner to advanced and are designed to enhance your data storytelling abilities. ✨ Try Julius today at https://landadatajob.com/Julius-YT Where I Go To Find Datasets (as a data analyst) 👉 https://youtu.be/DHfuvMyBofE?si=ABsdUfzgG7Nsbl89 💌 Join 10k+ aspiring data analysts & get my tips in your inbox weekly 👉 https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/newsletter 🆘 Feeling stuck in your data journey? Come to my next free "How to Land Your First Data Job" training 👉 https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/training 👩‍💻 Want to land a data job in less than 90 days? 👉 https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/daa 👔 Ace The Interview with Confidence 👉 https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/interviewsimulator

⌚ TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Introduction 00:24 - Project 1: Stock Price Analysis 03:46 - Project 2: Real Estate Data Analysis (SQL) 07:52 - Project 3: Personal Finance Dashboard (Tableau or Power BI) 11:20 - Project 4: Pokemon Analysis (Python) 14:16 - Project 5: Football Data Analysis (any tool)

🔗 CONNECT WITH AVERY 🎥 YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@averysmith 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/averyjsmith/ 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/datacareerjumpstart 🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@verydata 💻 Website: https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/ Mentioned in this episode: Join the last cohort of 2025! The LAST cohort of The Data Analytics Accelerator for 2025 kicks off on Monday, December 8th and enrollment is officially open!

To celebrate the end of the year, we’re running a special End-of-Year Sale, where you’ll get: ✅ A discount on your enrollment 🎁 6 bonus gifts, including job listings, interview prep, AI tools + more

If your goal is to land a data job in 2026, this is your chance to get ahead of the competition and start strong.

👉 Join the December Cohort & Claim Your Bonuses: https://DataCareerJumpstart.com/daa https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/daa

Struggling with data trust issues, dashboard drama, or constant pipeline firefighting? In this deep‑dive interview, Lior Barak shows you how to shift from a reactive “fix‑it” culture to a mindful, impact‑driven practice rooted in Zen/Wabi‑Sabi principles. You’ll learn: Why 97 % of CEOs say they use data, but only 24 % call themselves data‑driven The traffic‑light dashboard pattern (green / yellow / red) that instantly tells execs whether numbers are safe to use A practical rule for balancing maintenance, rollout, and innovation—and avoiding team burnout How to quantify ROI on data products, kill failing legacy systems, and handle ad‑hoc exec requests without derailing roadmaps Turning “imperfect” data into business value with mindful communication, root‑cause logs, and automated incident review loops

🕒 TIMECODES 00:00 Community and mindful data strategy 04:06 Career journey and product management insights 08:03 Wabi-sabi data and the trust crisis 11:47 AI, data imperfection, and trust challenges 20:05 Trust crisis examples and root cause analysis 25:06 Regaining trust through mindful data management 30:47 Traffic light system and effective communication 37:41 Communication gaps and team workload balance 39:58 Maintenance stress and embracing Zen mindset 49:29 Accepting imperfection and measuring impact 56:19 Legacy systems and managing executive requests 01:00:23 Role guidance and closing reflections

🔗 Connect with Lior LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/liorbarak Website - https://cookingdata.substack.com/ Cooking Data newsletter: https://cookingdata.substack.com/ Product product lifecycle manager: https://app--data-product-lifecycle-manager-c81b10bb.base44.app/

🔗 Connect with DataTalks.Club Join the community - https://datatalks.club/slack.html Subscribe to our Google calendar to have all our events in your calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/u/0/r?cid=ZjhxaWRqbnEwamhzY3A4ODA5azFlZ2hzNjBAZ3JvdXAuY2FsZW5kYXIuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbQ Check other upcoming events - https://lu.ma/dtc-events GitHub: https://github.com/DataTalksClub LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/datatalks-club/ Twitter - https://x.com/DataTalksClub Website - https://datatalks.club/

🔗 Connect with Alexey Twitter - https://x.com/Al_Grigor Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/agrigorev/

--- How can data storytelling improve health outcomes and save lives? The Lung Health Dashboard offers one example.

--- Today’s episode explores how effective data storytelling connects the public with life-saving research, using the Lung Health Dashboard as an example. This project a collaboration between GovEx and the Johns Hopkins BREATHE Center, which promotes the science and medicine of lung health by interfacing with the community. The dashboard seeks to overcome the challenges of data communication through dynamic, “scrollytelling” visuals to provide research findings to viewers in a relatable perspective.

--- We’re joined by Meredith McCormack, Director of the Pulmonary & Critical Care Medicine Division of Johns Hopkins Medicine and Director of the BREATHE Center; Kirsten Koehler, a professor in the Department of Environmental Health and Engineering at the Bloomberg School of Public Health and Deputy Director of the BREATHE Center; and Mary Conway Vaughan, Deputy Director of Research and Analytics here at GovEx.

--- Learn more about the BREATHE Center --- View the Lung Health Dashboard --- Learn more about GovEx --- Fill out our listener survey

Todd Olson joins me to talk about making analytics worth paying for and relevant in the age of AI. The CEO of Pendo, an analytics SAAS company, Todd shares how the company evolved to support a wider audience by simplifying dashboards, removing user roadblocks, and leveraging AI to both generate and explain insights. We also talked about the roles of product management at Pendo. Todd views AI product management as a natural evolution for adaptable teams and explains how he thinks about hiring product roles in 2025. Todd also shares how he thinks about successful user adoption of his product around “time to value” and “stickiness” over vanity metrics like time spent. 

Highlights/ Skip to:

How Todd has addressed analytics apathy over the past decade at Pendo (1:17) Getting back to basics and not barraging people with more data and power (4:02) Pendo’s strategy for keeping the product experience simple without abandoning power users (6:44) Whether Todd is considering using an LLM (prompt-based) answer-driven experience with Pendo's UI (8:51) What Pendo looks for when hiring product managers right now, and why (14:58) How Pendo evaluates AI product managers, specifically (19:14) How Todd Olson views AI product management compared to traditional software product management (21:56) Todd’s concerns about the probabilistic nature of AI-generated answers in the product UX (27:51) What KPIs Todd uses to know whether Pendo is doing enough to reach its goals (32:49)   Why being able to tell what answers are best will become more important as choice increases (40:05)

Quotes from Today’s Episode

“Let’s go back to classic Geoffrey Moore Crossing the Chasm, you’re selling to early adopters. And what you’re doing is you’re relying on the early adopters’ skill set and figuring out how to take this data and connect it to business problems. So, in the early days, we didn’t do anything because the market we were selling to was very, very savvy; they’re hungry people, they just like new things. They’re getting data, they’re feeling really, really smart, everything’s working great. As you get bigger and bigger and bigger, you start to try to sell to a bigger TAM, a bigger audience, you start trying to talk to the these early majorities, which are, they’re not early adopters, they’re more technology laggards in some degree, and they don’t understand how to use data to inform their job. They’ve never used data to inform their job. There, we’ve had to do a lot more work.” Todd (2:04 - 2:58) “I think AI is amazing, and I don’t want to say AI is overhyped because AI in general is—yeah, it’s the revolution that we all have to pay attention to. Do I think that the skills necessary to be an AI product manager are so distinct that you need to hire differently? No, I don’t. That’s not what I’m seeing. If you have a really curious product manager who’s going all in, I think you’re going to be okay. Some of the most AI-forward work happening at Pendo is not just product management. Our design team is going crazy. And I think one of the things that we’re seeing is a blend between design and product, that they’re always adjacent and connected; there’s more sort of overlappiness now.” Todd (22:41 - 23:28) “I think about things like stickiness, which may not be an aggregate time, but how often are people coming back and checking in? And if you had this companion or this agent that you just could not live without, and it caused you to come into the product almost every day just to check in, but it’s a fast check-in, like, a five-minute check-in, a ten-minute check-in, that’s pretty darn sticky. That’s a good metric. So, I like stickiness as a metric because it’s measuring [things like], “Are you thinking about this product a lot?” And if you’re thinking about it a lot, and like, you can’t kind of live without it, you’re going to go to it a lot, even if it’s only a few minutes a day. Social media is like that. Thankfully I’m not addicted to TikTok or Instagram or anything like that, but I probably check it nearly every day. That’s a pretty good metric. It gets part of my process of any products that you’re checking every day is pretty darn good. So yeah, but I think we need to reframe the conversation not just total time. Like, how are we measuring outcomes and value, and I think that’s what’s ultimately going to win here.” Todd (39:57)

Links

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddaolson/  X: https://x.com/tolson  [email protected] 

--- According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, transportation accounts for 28% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. For short trips, flying is much more carbon-intensive than rail or bus travel. At Johns Hopkins, faculty members travel the most of all affiliate types, producing more than double the emissions of administrative employees and staff.

--- The Johns Hopkins University Office of Climate and Sustainability, through its Campus as a Living Lab initiative - a program that supports sustainability innovation - partnered with GovEx to build a tool to help address this problem. Using interactive visualizations with comparable statistics across all Johns Hopkins divisions, users can compare the emissions data of different methods of transportation, enabling them to make more environmentally-friendly choices as they conduct their business.

--- We sit down with four contributors to the project to discuss how the tool was built and how cities can use it as a model to support their own climate change initiatives: Sara Betran de Lis, Director of Research and Analytics at GovEx; Heather Bree, Data Visualization and D3 Developer at GovEx; Debi Denney, Assistant Director of Johns Hopkins Office of Climate & Sustainability; and Rose Weeks, Senior Research Associate at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, working with the Campus as a Living Lab Program at the Office of Climate & Sustainability.

--- Learn more about GovEx --- Fill out our listener survey!

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast we welcome back Nick Schrock, CTO and founder of Dagster Labs, to discuss the evolving landscape of data engineering in the age of AI. As AI begins to impact data platforms and the role of data engineers, Nick shares his insights on how it will ultimately enhance productivity and expand software engineering's scope. He delves into the current state of AI adoption, the importance of maintaining core data engineering principles, and the need for human oversight when leveraging AI tools effectively. Nick also introduces Dagster's new components feature, designed to modularize and standardize data transformation processes, making it easier for teams to collaborate and integrate AI into their workflows. Join in to explore the future of data engineering, the potential for AI to abstract away complexity, and the importance of open standards in preventing walled gardens in the tech industry.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementThis episode is brought to you by Coresignal, your go-to source for high-quality public web data to power best-in-class AI products. Instead of spending time collecting, cleaning, and enriching data in-house, use ready-made multi-source B2B data that can be smoothly integrated into your systems via APIs or as datasets. With over 3 billion data records from 15+ online sources, Coresignal delivers high-quality data on companies, employees, and jobs. It is powering decision-making for more than 700 companies across AI, investment, HR tech, sales tech, and market intelligence industries. A founding member of the Ethical Web Data Collection Initiative, Coresignal stands out not only for its data quality but also for its commitment to responsible data collection practices. Recognized as the top data provider by Datarade for two consecutive years, Coresignal is the go-to partner for those who need fresh, accurate, and ethically sourced B2B data at scale. Discover how Coresignal's data can enhance your AI platforms. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/coresignal to start your free 14-day trial. Data migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details. This is a pharmaceutical Ad for Soda Data Quality. Do you suffer from chronic dashboard distrust? Are broken pipelines and silent schema changes wreaking havoc on your analytics? You may be experiencing symptoms of Undiagnosed Data Quality Syndrome — also known as UDQS. Ask your data team about Soda. With Soda Metrics Observability, you can track the health of your KPIs and metrics across the business — automatically detecting anomalies before your CEO does. It’s 70% more accurate than industry benchmarks, and the fastest in the category, analyzing 1.1 billion rows in just 64 seconds. And with Collaborative Data Contracts, engineers and business can finally agree on what “done” looks like — so you can stop fighting over column names, and start trusting your data again.Whether you’re a data engineer, analytics lead, or just someone who cries when a dashboard flatlines, Soda may be right for you. Side effects of implementing Soda may include: Increased trust in your metrics, reduced late-night Slack emergencies, spontaneous high-fives across departments, fewer meetings and less back-and-forth with business stakeholders, and in rare cases, a newfound love of data. Sign up today to get a chance to win a $1000+ custom mechanical keyboard. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/soda to sign up and follow Soda’s launch week. It starts June 9th.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Nick Schrock about lowering the barrier to entry for data platform consumersInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by giving your summary of the impact that the tidal wave of AI has had on data platforms and data teams?For anyone who hasn't heard of Dagster, can you give a quick summary of the project?What are the notable changes in the Dagster project in the past year?What are the ecosystem pressures that have shaped the ways that you think about the features and trajectory of Dagster as a project/product/community?In your recent release you introduced "components", which is a substantial change in how you enable teams to collaborate on data problems. What was the motivating factor in that work and how does it change the ways that organizations engage with their data?tension between being flexible and extensible vs. opinionated and constrainedincreased dependency on orchestration with LLM use casesreducing the barrier to contribution for data platform/pipelinesbringing application engineers into the mixchallenges of meeting users/teams where they are (languages, platform investments, etc.)What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen teams applying the Components pattern?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on the latest iterations of Dagster?When is Dagster the wrong choice?What do you have planned for the future of Dagster?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Links Dagster+ EpisodeDagster Components Slide DeckThe Rise Of Medium CodeLakehouse ArchitectureIcebergDagster ComponentsPydantic ModelsKubernetesDagster PipesRuby on RailsdbtSlingFivetranTemporalMCP == Model Context ProtocolThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Alex Albu, tech lead for AI initiatives at Starburst, talks about integrating AI workloads with the lakehouse architecture. From his software engineering roots to leading data engineering efforts, Alex shares insights on enhancing Starburst's platform to support AI applications, including an AI agent for data exploration and using AI for metadata enrichment and workload optimization. He discusses the challenges of integrating AI with data systems, innovations like SQL functions for AI tasks and vector databases, and the limitations of traditional architectures in handling AI workloads. Alex also shares his vision for the future of Starburst, including support for new data formats and AI-driven data exploration tools.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.This is a pharmaceutical Ad for Soda Data Quality. Do you suffer from chronic dashboard distrust? Are broken pipelines and silent schema changes wreaking havoc on your analytics? You may be experiencing symptoms of Undiagnosed Data Quality Syndrome — also known as UDQS. Ask your data team about Soda. With Soda Metrics Observability, you can track the health of your KPIs and metrics across the business — automatically detecting anomalies before your CEO does. It’s 70% more accurate than industry benchmarks, and the fastest in the category, analyzing 1.1 billion rows in just 64 seconds. And with Collaborative Data Contracts, engineers and business can finally agree on what “done” looks like — so you can stop fighting over column names, and start trusting your data again.Whether you’re a data engineer, analytics lead, or just someone who cries when a dashboard flatlines, Soda may be right for you. Side effects of implementing Soda may include: Increased trust in your metrics, reduced late-night Slack emergencies, spontaneous high-fives across departments, fewer meetings and less back-and-forth with business stakeholders, and in rare cases, a newfound love of data. Sign up today to get a chance to win a $1000+ custom mechanical keyboard. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/soda to sign up and follow Soda’s launch week. It starts June 9th. This episode is brought to you by Coresignal, your go-to source for high-quality public web data to power best-in-class AI products. Instead of spending time collecting, cleaning, and enriching data in-house, use ready-made multi-source B2B data that can be smoothly integrated into your systems via APIs or as datasets. With over 3 billion data records from 15+ online sources, Coresignal delivers high-quality data on companies, employees, and jobs. It is powering decision-making for more than 700 companies across AI, investment, HR tech, sales tech, and market intelligence industries. A founding member of the Ethical Web Data Collection Initiative, Coresignal stands out not only for its data quality but also for its commitment to responsible data collection practices. Recognized as the top data provider by Datarade for two consecutive years, Coresignal is the go-to partner for those who need fresh, accurate, and ethically sourced B2B data at scale. Discover how Coresignal's data can enhance your AI platforms. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/coresignal to start your free 14-day trial.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Alex Albu about how Starburst is extending the lakehouse to support AI workloadsInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by outlining the interaction points of AI with the types of data workflows that you are supporting with Starburst?What are some of the limitations of warehouse and lakehouse systems when it comes to supporting AI systems?What are the points of friction for engineers who are trying to employ LLMs in the work of maintaining a lakehouse environment?Methods such as tool use (exemplified by MCP) are a means of bolting on AI models to systems like Trino. What are some of the ways that is insufficient or cumbersome?Can you describe the technical implementation of the AI-oriented features that you have incorporated into the Starburst platform?What are the foundational architectural modifications that you had to make to enable those capabilities?For the vector storage and indexing, what modifications did you have to make to iceberg?What was your reasoning for not using a format like Lance?For teams who are using Starburst and your new AI features, what are some examples of the workflows that they can expect?What new capabilities are enabled by virtue of embedding AI features into the interface to the lakehouse?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen Starburst AI features used?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on AI features for Starburst?When is Starburst/lakehouse the wrong choice for a given AI use case?What do you have planned for the future of AI on Starburst?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links StarburstPodcast EpisodeAWS AthenaMCP == Model Context ProtocolLLM Tool UseVector EmbeddingsRAG == Retrieval Augmented GenerationAI Engineering Podcast EpisodeStarburst Data ProductsLanceLanceDBParquetORCpgvectorStarburst IcehouseThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Mai-Lan Tomsen Bukovec, Vice President of Technology at AWS, talks about the evolution of Amazon S3 and its profound impact on data architecture. From her work on compute systems to leading the development and operations of S3, Mylan shares insights on how S3 has become a foundational element in modern data systems, enabling scalable and cost-effective data lakes since its launch alongside Hadoop in 2006. She discusses the architectural patterns enabled by S3, the importance of metadata in data management, and how S3's evolution has been driven by customer needs, leading to innovations like strong consistency and S3 tables.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.This is a pharmaceutical Ad for Soda Data Quality. Do you suffer from chronic dashboard distrust? Are broken pipelines and silent schema changes wreaking havoc on your analytics? You may be experiencing symptoms of Undiagnosed Data Quality Syndrome — also known as UDQS. Ask your data team about Soda. With Soda Metrics Observability, you can track the health of your KPIs and metrics across the business — automatically detecting anomalies before your CEO does. It’s 70% more accurate than industry benchmarks, and the fastest in the category, analyzing 1.1 billion rows in just 64 seconds. And with Collaborative Data Contracts, engineers and business can finally agree on what “done” looks like — so you can stop fighting over column names, and start trusting your data again.Whether you’re a data engineer, analytics lead, or just someone who cries when a dashboard flatlines, Soda may be right for you. Side effects of implementing Soda may include: Increased trust in your metrics, reduced late-night Slack emergencies, spontaneous high-fives across departments, fewer meetings and less back-and-forth with business stakeholders, and in rare cases, a newfound love of data. Sign up today to get a chance to win a $1000+ custom mechanical keyboard. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/soda to sign up and follow Soda’s launch week. It starts June 9th.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Mai-Lan Tomsen Bukovec about the evolutions of S3 and how it has transformed data architectureInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Most everyone listening knows what S3 is, but can you start by giving a quick summary of what roles it plays in the data ecosystem?What are the major generational epochs in S3, with a particular focus on analytical/ML data systems?The first major driver of analytical usage for S3 was the Hadoop ecosystem. What are the other elements of the data ecosystem that helped shape the product direction of S3?Data storage and retrieval have been core primitives in computing since its inception. What are the characteristics of S3 and all of its copycats that led to such a difference in architectural patterns vs. other shared data technologies? (e.g. NFS, Gluster, Ceph, Samba, etc.)How does the unified pool of storage that is exemplified by S3 help to blur the boundaries between application data, analytical data, and ML/AI data?What are some of the default patterns for storage and retrieval across those three buckets that can lead to anti-patterns which add friction when trying to unify those use cases?The age of AI is leading to a massive potential for unlocking unstructured data, for which S3 has been a massive dumping ground over the years. How is that changing the ways that your customers think about the value of the assets that they have been hoarding for so long?What new architectural patterns is that generating?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen S3 used for analytical/ML/Ai applications?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on S3?When is S3 the wrong choice?What do you have planned for the future of S3?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links AWS S3KinesisKafkaSQSEMRDrupalWordpressNetflix Blog on S3 as a Source of TruthHadoopMapReduceNasa JPLFINRA == Financial Industry Regulatory AuthorityS3 Object VersioningS3 Cross RegionS3 TablesIcebergParquetAWS KMSIceberg RESTDuckDBNFS == Network File SystemSambaGlusterFSCephMinIOS3 MetadataPhotoshop Generative FillAdobe FireflyTurbotax AI AssistantAWS Access AnalyzerData ProductsS3 Access PointAWS Nova ModelsLexisNexis ProtegeS3 Intelligent TieringS3 Principal Engineering TenetsThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Summary In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast Chakravarthy Kotaru talks about scaling data operations through standardized platform offerings. From his roots as an Oracle developer to leading the data platform at a major online travel company, Chakravarthy shares insights on managing diverse database technologies and providing databases as a service to streamline operations. He explains how his team has transitioned from DevOps to a platform engineering approach, centralizing expertise and automating repetitive tasks with AWS Service Catalog. Join them as they discuss the challenges of migrating legacy systems, integrating AI and ML for automation, and the importance of organizational buy-in in driving data platform success.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementData migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today for the details.This is a pharmaceutical Ad for Soda Data Quality. Do you suffer from chronic dashboard distrust? Are broken pipelines and silent schema changes wreaking havoc on your analytics? You may be experiencing symptoms of Undiagnosed Data Quality Syndrome — also known as UDQS. Ask your data team about Soda. With Soda Metrics Observability, you can track the health of your KPIs and metrics across the business — automatically detecting anomalies before your CEO does. It’s 70% more accurate than industry benchmarks, and the fastest in the category, analyzing 1.1 billion rows in just 64 seconds. And with Collaborative Data Contracts, engineers and business can finally agree on what “done” looks like — so you can stop fighting over column names, and start trusting your data again.Whether you’re a data engineer, analytics lead, or just someone who cries when a dashboard flatlines, Soda may be right for you. Side effects of implementing Soda may include: Increased trust in your metrics, reduced late-night Slack emergencies, spontaneous high-fives across departments, fewer meetings and less back-and-forth with business stakeholders, and in rare cases, a newfound love of data. Sign up today to get a chance to win a $1000+ custom mechanical keyboard. Visit dataengineeringpodcast.com/soda to sign up and follow Soda’s launch week. It starts June 9th.Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Chakri Kotaru about scaling successful data operations through standardized platform offeringsInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you start by outlining the different ways that you have seen teams you work with fail due to lack of structure and opinionated design?Why NoSQL?Pairing different styles of NoSQL for different problemsUseful patterns for each NoSQL style (document, column family, graph, etc.)Challenges in platform automation and scaling edge casesWhat challenges do you anticipate as a result of the new pressures as a result of AI applications?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen platform engineering practices applied to data systems?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on data platform engineering?When is NoSQL the wrong choice?What do you have planned for the future of platform principles for enabling data teams/data applications?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links RiakDynamoDBSQL ServerCassandraScyllaDBCAP TheoremTerraformAWS Service CatalogBlog PostThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Today, I’m talking with Natalia Andreyeva from Infor about AI / ML product management and its application to supply chain software. Natalia is a Senior Director of Product Management for the Nexus AI / ML Solution Portfolio, and she walks us through what is new, and what is not, about designing AI capabilities in B2B software. We also got into why user experience is so critical in data-driven products, and the role of design in ensuring AI produces value. During our chat, Natalia hit on the importance of really nailing down customer needs through solid discovery and the role of product leaders in this non-technical work.

We also tackled some of the trickier aspects of designing for GenAI, digital assistants, the need to keep efforts strongly grounded in value creation for customers, and how even the best ML-based predictive analytics need to consider UX and the amount of evidence that customers need to believe the recommendations. During this episode, Natalia emphasizes a huge key to her work’s success: keeping customers and users in the loop throughout the product development lifecycle.

Highlights/ Skip to

What Natalia does as a Senior Director of Product Management for Infor Nexus (1:13) Who are the people using Infor Nexus Products and what do they accomplish when using them (2:51) Breaking down who makes up Natalia's team (4:05) What role does AI play in Natalia's work? (5:32) How do designers work with Natalia's team? (7:17) The problem that had Natalia rethink the discovery process when working with AI and machine learning applications (10:28) Why Natalia isn’t worried about competitors catching up to her team's design work (14:24) How Natalia works with Infor Nexus customers to help them understand the solutions her team is building (23:07) The biggest challenges Natalia faces with building GenAI and machine learning products (27:25) Natalia’s four steps to success in building AI products and capabilities (34:53) Where you can find more from Natalia (36:49)

Quotes from Today’s Episode

“I always launch discovery with customers, in the presence of the UX specialist [our designer]. We do the interviews together, and [regardless of who is facilitating] the goal is to understand the pain points of our customers by listening to how they do their jobs today. We do a series of these interviews and we distill them into the customer needs; the problems we need to really address for the customers. And then we start thinking about how to [address these needs]. Data products are a particular challenge because it’s not always that you can easily create a UX that would allow users to realize the value they’re searching for from the solution. And even if we can deliver it, consuming that is typically a challenge, too. So, this is where [design becomes really important]. [...] What I found through the years of experience is that it’s very difficult to explain to people around you what it is that you’re building when you’re dealing with a data-driven product. Is it a dashboard? Is it a workboard? They understand the word data, but that’s not what we are creating. We are creating the actual experience for the outcome that data will deliver to them indirectly, right? So, that’s typically how we work.” - Natalia Andreyeva (7:47) “[When doing discovery for products without AI], we already have ideas for what we want to get out. We know that there is a space in the market for those solutions to come to life. We just have to understand where. For AI-driven products, it’s not only about [the user’s] understanding of the problem or the design, it is also about understanding if the data exists and if it’s feasible to build the solution to address [the user’s] problem. [Data] feasibility is an extremely important piece because it will drive the UX as well.” - Natalia Andreyeva (10:50) “When [the team] discussed the problem, it sounded like a simple calculation that needed to be created [for users]. In reality, it was an entire process of thinking of multiple people in the chain [of command] to understand whether or not a medical product was safe to be consumed. That’s the outcome we needed to produce, and when we finally did, we actually celebrated with our customers and with our designers. It was one of the most difficult things that we had to design. So why did this problem actually get solved, and why we were the ones who solved it? It’s because we took the time to understand the current user experience through [our customer] interviews. We connected the dots and translated it all into a visual solution. We would never be able to do that without the proper UX and design in that place for the data.” - Natalia Andreyeva (13:16) “Everybody is pressured to come up with a strategy [for AI] or explain how AI is being incorporated into their solutions and platform, but it is still essential for all of my peers in product management to focus on the value [we’re] creating for customers. You cannot bypass discovery. Discovery is the essential portion where you have to spend time with your customers, champions, advisors, and their leads, but especially users who are doing this [supply chain] job every single day—so we understand where the pain point really is for them, we solve that pain, and we solve it with our design team as a partner, so that solution can surface value. ” - Natalia Andreyeva (22:08) “GenAI is a new field and new technology. It’s evolving quickly, and nobody really knows how to properly adapt or drive the adoption of AI solutions. The speed of innovation [in the AI field] is a challenge for everybody. People who work on the frontlines (i.e. product, engineering teams), have to stay way ahead of the market. Meanwhile, customers who are going to be using these [AI] solutions are not going to trust the [initial] outcomes. It’s going to take some time for people to become comfortable with them. But it doesn’t mean that your solution is bad or didn’t find the market fit. It’s just not time for your [solution] yet. Educating our users on the value of the solution is also part of that challenge, and [designers] have to be very careful that solutions are accessible. Users do not adopt intimidating solutions.” - Natalia Andreyeva (27:41) “First, discovery—where we search for the problems. From my experience, [discovery] works better if you’re very structured. I always provide [a customer] with an outline of what needs to happen so it’s not a secret. Then, do the prototyping phase and keep the customer engaged so they can see the quick outcomes of those prototypes. This is where you also have to really include the feasibility of the data if you’re building an AI solution, right? [Prototyping] can be short or long, but you need to keep the customer engaged throughout that phase so they see quick outcomes. Keep on validating this conceptually, you know, on the napkin, in Figma, it doesn’t really matter; you have to keep on keeping them engaged. Then, once you validate it works and the customer likes it, then build. Don’t really go into the deep development work until you know [all of this!] When you do build, create a beta solution. It only has to work so much to prove the value. Then, run the pilot, and if it’s successful, build the MVP, then launch. It’s simple, but it is a lot of work, and you have to keep your customers really engaged through all of those phases. If something doesn’t work [along the way], try to pivot early enough so you still have a viable product at the end.” - Natalia Andreyeva (34:53)

Links

Natalia's LinkedIn

A challenge I frequently hear about from subscribers to my insights mailing list is how to design B2B data products for multiple user types with differing needs. From dashboards to custom apps and commercial analytics / AI products, data product teams often struggle to create a single solution that meets the diverse needs of technical and business users in B2B settings. If you're encountering this issue, you're not alone!

In this episode, I share my advice for tackling this challenge including the gift of saying "no.” What are the patterns you should be looking out for in your customer research? How can you choose what to focus on with limited resources? What are the design choices you should avoid when trying to build these products? I’m hoping by the end of this episode, you’ll have some strategies to help reduce the size of this challenge—particularly if you lack a dedicated UX team to help you sort through your various user/stakeholder demands. 

Highlights/ Skip to 

The importance of proper user research and clustering “jobs to be done” around business importance vs. task frequency—ignoring the rest until your solution can show measurable value  (4:29) What “level” of skill to design for, and why “as simple as possible” isn’t what I generally recommend (13:44) When it may be advantageous to use role or feature-based permissions to hide/show/change certain aspects, UI elements, or features  (19:50) Leveraging AI and LLMs in-product to allow learning about the user and progressive disclosure and customization of UIs (26:44) Leveraging the “old” solution of rapid prototyping—which is now faster than ever with AI, and can accelerate learning (capturing user feedback) (31:14) 5 things I do not recommend doing when trying to satisfy multiple user types in your b2b AI or analytics product (34:14)

Quotes from Today’s Episode

If you're not talking to your users and stakeholders sufficiently, you're going to have a really tough time building a successful data product for one user – let alone for multiple personas. Listen for repeating patterns in what your users are trying to achieve (tasks they are doing). Focus on the jobs and tasks they do most frequently or the ones that bring the most value to their business. Forget about the rest until you've proven that your solution delivers real value for those core needs. It's more about understanding the problems and needs, not just the solutions. The solutions tend to be easier to design when the problem space is well understood. Users often suggest solutions, but it's our job to focus on the core problem we're trying to solve; simply entering in any inbound requests verbatim into JIRA and then “eating away” at the list is not usually a reliable strategy. (5:52) I generally recommend not going for “easy as possible” at the cost of shallow value. Instead, you’re going to want to design for some “mid-level” ability, understanding that this may make early user experiences with the product more difficult. Why? Oversimplification can mislead because data is complex, problems are multivariate, and data isn't always ideal. There are also “n” number of “not-first” impressions users will have with your product. This also means there is only one “first impression” they have. As such, the idea conceptually is to design an amazing experience for the “n” experiences, but not to the point that users never realize value and give up on the product.  While I'd prefer no friction, technical products sometimes will have to have a little friction up front however, don't use this as an excuse for poor design. This is hard to get right, even when you have design resources, and it’s why UX design matters as thinking this through ends up determining, in part, whether users obtain the promise of value you made to them. (14:21) As an alternative to rigid role and feature-based permissions in B2B data products, you might consider leveraging AI and / or LLMs in your UI as a means of simplifying and customizing the UI to particular users. This approach allows users to potentially interrogate the product about the UI, customize the UI, and even learn over time about the user’s questions (jobs to be done) such that becomes organically customized over time to their needs. This is in contrast to the rigid buckets that role and permission-based customization present. However, as discussed in my previous episode (164 - “The Hidden UX Taxes that AI and LLM Features Impose on B2B Customers Without Your Knowledge”)  designing effective AI features and capabilities can also make things worse due to the probabilistic nature of the responses GenAI produces. As such, this approach may benefit from a UX designer or researcher familiar with designing data products. Understanding what “quality” means to the user, and how to measure it, is especially critical if you’re going to leverage AI and LLMs to make the product UX better. (20:13) The old solution of rapid prototyping is even more valuable now—because it’s possible to prototype even faster. However, prototyping is not just about learning if your solution is on track. Whether you use AI or pencil and paper, prototyping early in the product development process should be framed as a “prop to get users talking.” In other words, it is a prop to facilitate problem and need clarity—not solution clarity. Its purpose is to spark conversation and determine if you're solving the right problem. As you iterate, your need to continually validate the problem should shrink, which will present itself in the form of consistent feedback you hear from end users. This is the point where you know you can focus on the design of the solution. Innovation happens when we learn; so the goal is to increase your learning velocity. (31:35) Have you ever been caught in the trap of prioritizing feature requests based on volume? I get it. It's tempting to give the people what they think they want. For example, imagine ten users clamoring for control over specific parameters in your machine learning forecasting model. You could give them that control, thinking you're solving the problem because, hey, that's what they asked for! But did you stop to ask why they want that control? The reasons behind those requests could be wildly different. By simply handing over the keys to all the model parameters, you might be creating a whole new set of problems. Users now face a "usability tax," trying to figure out which parameters to lock and which to let float. The key takeaway? Focus on addressing the frequency that the same problems are occurring across your users, not just the frequency a given tactic or “solution” method (i.e. “model” or “dashboard” or “feature”) appears in a stakeholder or user request. Remember, problems are often disguised as solutions. We've got to dig deeper and uncover the real needs, not just address the symptoms. (36:19)

Summary The challenges of integrating all of the tools in the modern data stack has led to a new generation of tools that focus on a fully integrated workflow. At the same time, there have been many approaches to how much of the workflow is driven by code vs. not. Burak Karakan is of the opinion that a fully integrated workflow that is driven entirely by code offers a beneficial and productive means of generating useful analytical outcomes. In this episode he shares how Bruin builds on those opinions and how you can use it to build your own analytics without having to cobble together a suite of tools with conflicting abstractions.

Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data managementImagine catching data issues before they snowball into bigger problems. That’s what Datafold’s new Monitors do. With automatic monitoring for cross-database data diffs, schema changes, key metrics, and custom data tests, you can catch discrepancies and anomalies in real time, right at the source. Whether it’s maintaining data integrity or preventing costly mistakes, Datafold Monitors give you the visibility and control you need to keep your entire data stack running smoothly. Want to stop issues before they hit production? Learn more at dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold today!Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Burak Karakan about the benefits of building code-only data systemsInterview IntroductionHow did you get involved in the area of data management?Can you describe what Bruin is and the story behind it?Who is your target audience?There are numerous tools that address the ETL workflow for analytical data. What are the pain points that you are focused on for your target users?How does a code-only approach to data pipelines help in addressing the pain points of analytical workflows?How might it act as a limiting factor for organizational involvement?Can you describe how Bruin is designed?How have the design and scope of Bruin evolved since you first started working on it?You call out the ability to mix SQL and Python for transformation pipelines. What are the components that allow for that functionality?What are some of the ways that the combination of Python and SQL improves ergonomics of transformation workflows?What are the key features of Bruin that help to streamline the efforts of organizations building analytical systems?Can you describe the workflow of someone going from source data to warehouse and dashboard using Bruin and Ingestr?What are the opportunities for contributions to Bruin and Ingestr to expand their capabilities?What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen Bruin and Ingestr used?What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on Bruin?When is Bruin the wrong choice?What do you have planned for the future of Bruin?Contact Info LinkedInParting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.init covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The AI Engineering Podcast is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.Visit the site to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.Links BruinFivetranStitchIngestrBruin CLIMeltanoSQLGlotdbtSQLMeshPodcast EpisodeSDFPodcast EpisodeAirflowDagsterSnowparkAtlanEvidenceThe intro and outro music is from The Hug by The Freak Fandango Orchestra / CC BY-SA

Wait, I’m talking to a head of data management at a tech company? Why!? Well, today I'm joined by Malcolm Hawker to get his perspective around data products and what he’s seeing out in the wild as Head of Data Management at Profisee. Why Malcolm? Malcolm was a former head of product in prior roles, and for several years, I’ve enjoyed Malcolm’s musings on LinkedIn about the value of a product-oriented approach to ML and analytics. We had a chance to meet at CDOIQ in 2023 as well and he went on my “need to do an episode” list! 

According to Malcom, empathy is the secret to addressing key UX questions that ensure adoption and business value. He also emphasizes the need for data experts to develop business skills so that they're seen as equals by their customers. During our chat, Malcolm stresses the benefits of a product- and customer-centric approach to data products and what data professionals can learn approaching problem solving with a product orientation. 

Highlights/ Skip to:

Malcolm’s definition of a data product (2:10) Understanding your customers’ needs is the first step toward quantifying the benefits of your data product (6:34) How product makers can gain access to users to build more successful products (11:36)  Answering the UX question to get past the adoption stage and provide business value (16:03) Data experts must develop business expertise if they want to be seen as equals by potential customers (20:07) What people really mean by “data culture" (23:02) Malcolm’s data product journey and his changing perspective (32:05) Using empathy to provide a better UX in design and data (39:24) Avoiding the death of data science by becoming more product-driven (46:23) Where the majority of data professionals currently land on their view of product management for data products (48:15)

Quotes from Today’s Episode “My definition of a data product is something that is built by a data and analytics team that solves a specific customer problem that the customer would otherwise be willing to pay for. That’s it.” - Malcolm Hawker (3:42) “You need to observe how your customer uses data to make better decisions, optimize a business process, or to mitigate business risk. You need to know how your customers operate at a very, very intimate level, arguably, as well as they know how their business processes operate.” - Malcolm Hawker (7:36)

“So, be a problem solver. Be collaborative. Be somebody who is eager to help make your customers’ lives easier. You hear "no" when people think that you’re a burden. You start to hear more “yeses” when people think that you are actually invested in helping make their lives easier.” - Malcolm Hawker (12:42)

“We [data professionals] put data on a pedestal. We develop this mindset that the data matters more—as much or maybe even more than the business processes, and that is not true. We would not exist if it were not for the business. Hard stop.” - Malcolm Hawker (17:07)

“I hate to say it, I think a lot of this data stuff should kind of feel invisible in that way, too. It’s like this invisible ally that you’re not thinking about the dashboard; you just access the information as part of your natural workflow when you need insights on making a decision, or a status check that you’re on track with whatever your goal was. You’re not really going out of mode.” - Brian O’Neill (24:59)

“But you know, data people are basically librarians. We want to put things into classifications that are logical and work forwards and backwards, right? And in the product world, sometimes they just don’t, where you can have something be a product and be a material to a subsequent product.” - Malcolm Hawker (37:57)

“So, the broader point here is just more of a mindset shift. And you know, maybe these things aren’t necessarily a bad thing, but how do we become a little more product- and customer-driven so that we avoid situations where everybody thinks what we’re doing is a time waster?” - Malcolm Hawker (48:00)

Links Profisee: https://profisee.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/malhawker/  CDO Matters: https://profisee.com/cdo-matters-live-with-malcolm-hawker/

Today, we’re joined by Mike Palmer, Chief Executive Officer at Sigma, the only cloud analytics solution with a spreadsheet-like interface enabling anyone to explore data at cloud scale and speed. We talk about:  Creating a product for the average person to useIf the dashboard will be replaced by an AI promptDisruption of SaaS in the march toward cloud adoptionDo we have too many SaaS products in the market today?How technology always starts with an expert and ends democratized

Welcome back! In today's solo episode, I share the top five struggles that enterprise SAAS leaders have in the analytics/insight/decision support space that most frequently leads them to think they have a UI/UX design problem that has to be addressed. A lot of today's episode will talk about "slow creep," unaddressed design problems that gradually build up over time and begin to impact both UX and your revenue negatively. I will also share 20 UI and UX design problems I often see (even if clients do not!) that, when left unaddressed, may create sales friction, adoption problems, churn, or unhappy end users. If you work at a software company or are directly monetizing an ML or analytical data product, this episode is for you! 

Highlights/ Skip to 

I discuss how specific UI/UX design problems can significantly impact business performance (02:51) I discuss five common reasons why enterprise software leaders typically reach out for help (04:39) The 20 common symptoms I've observed in client engagements that indicate the need for professional UI/UX intervention or training (13:22) The dangers of adding too many features or customization and how it can overwhelm users (16:00) The issues of integrating  AI into user interfaces and UXs without proper design thinking  (30:08) I encourage listeners to apply the insights shared to improve their data products (48:02)

Quotes from Today’s Episode “One of the problems with bad design is that some of it we can see and some of it we can't — unless you know what you're looking for." - Brian O’Neill (02:23) “Design is usually not top of mind for an enterprise software product, especially one in the machine learning and analytics space. However, if you have human users, even enterprise ones, their tolerance for bad software is much lower today than in the past.” Brian O’Neill - (13:04) “Early on when you're trying to get product market fit, you can't be everything for everyone. You need to be an A+ experience for the person you're trying to satisfy.” -Brian O’Neill (15:39) “Often when I see customization, it is mostly used as a crutch for not making real product strategy and design decisions.”  - Brian O’Neill (16:04)  "Customization of data and dashboard products may be more of a tax than a benefit. In the marketing copy, customization sounds like a benefit...until you actually go in and try to do it. It puts the mental effort to design a good solution on the user." - Brian O’Neill (16:26) “We need to think strategically when implementing Gen AI or just AI in general into the product UX because it won’t automatically help drive sales or increase business value.” - Brian O’Neill (20:50)  “A lot of times our analytics and machine learning tools… are insight decision support products. They're supposed to be rooted in facts and data, but when it comes to designing these products, there's not a whole lot of data and facts that are actually informing the product design choices.” Brian O’Neill - (30:37) “If your IP is that special, but also complex, it needs the proper UI/UX design treatment so that the value can be surfaced in such a way someone is willing to pay for it if not also find it indispensable and delightful.” - Brian O’Neill (45:02)

Links The (5) big reasons AI/ML and analytics product leaders invest in UI/UX design help: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources/the-5-big-reasons-ai-ml-and-analytics-product-leaders-invest-in-ui-ux-design-help/  Subscribe for free insights on designing useful, high-value enterprise ML and analytical data products: https://designingforanalytics.com/list  Access my free frameworks, guides, and additional reading for SAAS leaders on designing high-value ML and analytical data products: https://designingforanalytics.com/resources Need help getting your product’s design/UX on track—so you can see more sales, less churn, and higher user adoption? Schedule a free 60-minute Discovery Call with me and I’ll give you my read on your situation and my recommendations to get ahead:https://designingforanalytics.com/services/

Welcome to a special edition of Experiencing Data. This episode is the audio capture from a live Crowdcast video webinar I gave on April 26th, 2024 where I conducted a mini UI/UX design audit of a new podcast analytics service that Chris Hill, CEO of Humblepod, is working on to help podcast hosts grow their show. Humblepod is also the team-behind-the-scenes of Experiencing Data, and Chris had asked me to take a look at his new “Listener Lifecycle” tool to see if we could find ways to improve the UX and visualizations in the tool, how we might productize this MVP in the future, and how improving the tool’s design might help Chris help his prospective podcast clients learn how their listener data could help them grow their listenership and “true fans.”

On a personal note, it was fun to talk to Chris on the show given we speak every week:  Humblepod has been my trusted resource for audio mixing, transcription, and show note summarizing for probably over 100 of the most recent episodes of Experiencing Data. It was also fun to do a “live recording” with an audience—and we did answer questions in the full video version. (If you missed the invite, join my Insights mailing list to get notified of future free webinars).

To watch the full audio and video recording on Crowdcast, free, head over to: https://www.crowdcast.io/c/podcast-analytics-ui-ux-design

Highlights/ Skip to: Chris talks about using data to improve podcasts and his approach to podcast numbers  (03:06) Chris introduces the Listener Lifecycle model which informed the dashboard design (08:17) Chris and I discuss the importance of labeling and terminology in analytics UIs (11:00) We discuss designing for practical use of analytics dashboards to provide actionable insights (17:05) We discuss the challenges podcast hosts face in understanding and utilizing data effectively and how design might help (21:44) I discuss how my CED UX framework for advanced analytics applications helps to facilitate actionable insights (24:37) I highlight the importance of presenting data effectively and in a way that centers to user needs (28:50) I express challenges users may have with podcast rankings and the reliability of data sources (34:24)  Chris and I discuss tailoring data reports to meet the specific needs of clients (37:14)

Quotes from Today’s Episode “The irony for me as someone who has a podcast about machine learning and analytics and design is that I basically never look at my analytics.” - Brian O’Neill (01:14) “The problem that I have found in podcasting is that the number that everybody uses to gauge whether a podcast is good or not is the download number…But there’s a lot of other factors in a podcast that can tell you how successful it’s going to be…where you can pull levers to…grow your show, or engage more with an audience.” - Chris Hill (03:20) “I have a framework for user experience design for analytics called CED, which stands for Conclusions, Evidence, Data… The basic idea is really simple: lead your analytic service with conclusions.”- Brian O’Neill (24:37) “Where the eyes glaze over is when tools are mostly about evidence generators, and we just give everybody the evidence, but there’s no actual analysis about how [this is] helping me improve my life or my business. It’s just evidence. I need someone to put that together.” - Brian O’Neill (25:23) “Sometimes the data doesn’t provide enough of a conclusion about what to do…This is where your opinion starts to matter” - Brian O’Neill (26:07) “It sounds like a benefit, but drilling down for most people into analytics stuff is usually a tax unless you’re an analyst.” - Brian O’Neill (27:39) “Where’s the source of this data, and who decided what these numbers are? Because so much of this stuff…is not shared. As someone who’s in this space, it’s not even that it’s confusing. It’s more like, you got to distill this down for me.” - Brian O’Neill (34:57) “Your clients are probably going to glaze over at this level of data because it’s not helping them make any decision about what to change.”- Brian O’Neill (37:53)

Links Watch the original Crowdcast video recording of this episode Brian’s CED UX Framework for Advanced Analytics Solutions Join Brian’s Insights mailing list